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Author Topic: Ignore Death Ultimate Augment  (Read 578 times)
Draca
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« on: September 12, 2021, 12:38:15 pm »

Preface:

As I mentioned in my long-winded introduction in the Labor Day Weekend post Akkadius put up, I plan to be as open as possible with everyone, including about upcoming changes that may not be popular, regardless of how difficult the conversation may be. Understand, I don't relish queueing up nerfs for everything, and that's not at all what I want to do, but there exists some unbalancing items on EZ Server, and openly discussing them seems the best way forward. If you want to participate in this conversation, or help with testing, do it in a constructive manner. Nothing is yet set in stone, and the reason for this conversation is to see how the server lies with the issue I'm seeing.


Current Topic:  Ignore Death Ultimate Augment

For those unfamiliar with it, this is it:



Now, the issue with this augment, as you can see, is that it causes the player to resist 100% of spells, and increase Dodge by 10,000%. Now, this isn't necessarily overpowering on your Shaman or Magician, but on classes like Rogue, Monk and Ranger it makes them able to easily  solo Kerafyrm, Warders, and almost anything other than NPC's with unresistable spells, including being able to zone pull Sunderock. I have no issue with people choosing to use non-standard classes as their main (which on EZ is pretty much any class but Warrior), and people have used this augment to it's fullest potential, but similar to Guardian Charm, it's a little out of whack. I think that people could agree in principle to the fact that a Ranger, Rogue or Monk shouldn't be able to turn the current end-zone boss into a 3 second fight and another 30 seconds to clean up all Guardian spawns at once. I realize that people have been finding non-standard ways to kill bosses since EQ was released, but this isn't necessarily cleverly using an ability, or precisely timed AA's, it's pretty much a run in with a riposte ability on, augment procs, and stuff dies.

Problem & Solutions:

So the problem for me, is that this type of near invulnerability item presents substantial problems when designing spell heavy encounters. Yes, I could set everything unresistable, or simply damage the character directly from a script and bypass the augment altogether, but what I would prefer to do is come up with a reasonable modification to it, such that it's not a near 100% invulnerability. So, along these lines, I have done some limited testing with someone who prefers to main a non-tank character, and has used this augment to great effect. I won't out anyone here publicly, as if there is strong reactions, I will take the brunt of that. So solutions we initially brainstormed were, as mentioned, unresistable spells, adds spawning behind the character(as dodge doesn't work from the back, and RNG/ROG/MNK aren't surviving back shots for long), or similar modifications/additions to encounters to specifically address this augment. We also talked about reducing proc rate/buff duration, however that also would heavily neuter the item, as even a short downtime meant death in my testing. What we ended up testing together, was reducing the chance to resist percentage from 100%, down to 95, 90, 85 and 80%. This avenue seemed the most promising. In my own testing, and his, we both were able to still solo what he was soloing before, but the odds of success weren't 99.9% as before, and there was at least some suspense in the fights.

Feedback:

Understand, absolutely nothing about this is set in stone. If the vast majority of people want it left alone, and work encounters around it, then that's fine with me, but it would end up feeling very nerfed in new zones. If anyone has a different idea, or constructive feedback, let's hear it!  I can make changes on Test server, and people can freely come try it out (on old content, you don't get to see my new zone yet Kiss) and we can modify until we get a general consensus, or at least minimal nerd rage.

This isn't happening overnight, Ignore Death changes, if any, won't come for months most likely, so don't get too worked up.

-Draca
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wolfegunr
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2021, 03:34:30 pm »

It's honestly an overdue nerf just like the guardian. My belief is that this was an aug made to allow your alts to survive when you were woopin up in a group setting in T10+.


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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul.
Dimur
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2021, 09:04:27 pm »

The intent if the aug was definitely not to increase tankability of non tank classes but survivability. Just put a condition check on the buff, each pulse check if the character has agro...if buff is up and character has agro set duration to -1 and the buff fades.

As far as guardian charm, it was a broken effect on purpose.  Once you got the first ultimate charm it worked as intended. The problem was during dev transition, much like the cleric self vie buff, it was reported as broken and incorrectly enabled without addressing why it was never intended to work or be used that way in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 09:09:44 pm by Dimur » Logged
wachna
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 06:44:25 am »

This is an interesting topic..

Yes on one side a rogue, monk, ranger (sorry falcon) shouldnt be able to solo zp SR but they really should be able to (easily) solo single boss mobs (if they got the right gear). Because this is their USP. And it should stay this way.

Every class should have its purpose in game. Right now 90% of all classes are useless IMO. This should be fixed first…

In another step there should be fixes to other items. UCs are useless right now, almost all UW are useless (because most classes are useless).

It doesnt make sense to me that an UC does not have the abilities of all 4 single charms combined. That is why every warrior uses a guardian charm. If the vampiric effect would be included in UCs you could easily scale up the % of the effect with every level of UC. So it would actually make sense to do this quest. Same goes for the other abilities that help other classes.

It should be a goal of the game to have several classes „maxed out“ to do several things in the game.

And if a rogue or monk or even a ranger (sorry again falcon) is „maxed out“ why shouldnt he/she be able to destroy single boss mobs in t10.5? Why should a warrior or sk not be able to TANK a whole zone while a necro or wizard will do a massive aoe strike (or 2-3) that kills almost everything?
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Tankus
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 01:55:59 pm »

Would've been nice to see stuff fixed instead of just nerfing everything we've worked out we can take advantage of without exploiting in anyway....

Tank
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Zentail
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 05:30:56 pm »

I may get poo'd on (especially because I main a Rogue that uses Ignore Death heavily for things like ZPs), but Ignore Death was clearly an augment to help people survive who are not tanking, mainly from things like AoE when the tank pulls a group of mobs. With EQ's limitations, it may be impossible/very difficult to code, but having it not be a proc and instead 100% uptime effective when equipped, but only works against targets that are not targeting you could make the augment still prove 100% effective in its intended scenario, while 0% effective in its unintended scenario.

It's unfortunate that an item like this receives any kind of nerf after being functional this way for such an immense amount of time though. Things have been set in a certain way for so long that I'd worry nerfs, even though they're deserved, could scare people away. You could always go the route you mentioned of simply leaving it unchanged in current content and building around it in future content.
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Draca
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 06:28:52 pm »

I am not commenting on anything in particular, but these are exactly the conversations that the active player base must engage in, so that I know what people feel on a given topic. I completely understand that nerfing items that have been one way for a long time isn't a good feeling for people who rely on them, but I appreciate that those same people understand the overpowered nature of the item, or that it's being used in an unintended way, thus becoming unintentionally overpowered. Again, I have made no decision on this, I've only begun with some fact finding testing, and engaged some interested parties to get their feedback. Please, continue the discussion, or provide your constructive feedback.

-Draca
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Poker-ecaf
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 06:57:26 pm »

Focus Augment for Tank class would be nice like the thorny one always hated seen that empty slot ;p

i can unterstand the nerf need of that augment but no clue what really would work well ... maybe shorter uptime or higher procrate !!!
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akpainter
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2021, 10:15:09 am »

Tweaking I would agree is needed as nothing is 100%.

Dimur's suggestion of agro i dont think would work however-
-if the idea was that a support class would stay alive because of this aug
-then they get agro and live because of this aug
- but agro makes the buff drop... then your dead no matter what.  
I understand surviving rampage or aoe spells but if the mob turns on you and the buff drops your probably dead.

The main issue I think is like Zen said, the server has been using the tools and items as it sat for a long time which will cause a stir as things change, Good or Bad.

We all enjoyed figuring out the parts and pieces of this server and now, minus the new players, are just farming up extra toons or helping new guys.

So we must work at the balance of "hey just make a rogue and no other characters" and holy crap my prize toon is now a shelf toon due to nerf.

Whats the goal?

Are we trying to make people play multiple toons?  There is a lot of fixing that will be needed to make that work well- Try to heal a T10.5 warrior with a healing class and stay alive (just an example i know you can do it with work)

Are we trying to make it harder?  Does the existing player base who has defeated the content want to do it again cause its harder? probably not

Are we trying to build new content that requires new things or negates old things?  Zens example of making new content around existing items

Do we make them legacy items that fade with the changing of the player base?  Make a 2.0 ID that changes the item but legacy the 1.0 that exists?  Manastone Guise of Deceiver?

I like the idea of modifying the UCs to incorporate the base charms better, always thought it was odd to have a Ultimate anything that isnt just that haha.

I am a boxer at heart but it would take me time to wrap my head around using/needing a full group on EZ anymore.  Not a complaint just a statement of fact that i think most existing players will echo.

Just a couple more questions to inspire the conversation.

-Slippz/Tankmeout
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 10:16:57 am by akpainter » Logged
Natedog
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2021, 02:04:55 pm »

That seems pretty OP Cheesy
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