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[Thyl]

Take it down a notch, you guys are attacking me like I have done something wrong.  After all curse words are against the rules.  All I have done is played the Devil's Advocate to your opinion and obviously upset you, but that was not my intention.

I just started on this server a week ago and have worked hard to gear up and progress.  I have not had any issues with anybody in game, and I have enjoyed my time over here thus far.

Just because I don't agree with one certain issue does not mean I have mal-intent.  I disagree with a number of political issues in America, but I consider myself a respected law abiding citizen.

But ban me for disagreeing with you if that is your wish, because you have nothing else on me than a difference of opinion.  Im sorry to have ruffled your feathers, but this is a public forum in which people state their opinions on matters.  I have said all along that I am not saying you guys are wrong nor am I saying that I am right, Im just saying what I feel, and if that is punishable, then ban away.

I honestly hope you don't get banned for expressing opinions. This really is a fun server with lots of good people for the most part.

Even though you are new you should be able to understand why this is such a touchy subject.  Imagine if you have been trying to get a specific item, such as plate legs for one of your toons, and you have put in several hours of playing before it drops only to have some one walk up and take it. Everyone who plays has a life outside of the game and has to devote time away from other things to get some time to play. It's not cool to steal something someone has worked for.

It is upsetting to people that you mention things like corpse timers when there is just one absolute rule that IMO is a very fair one. If someone kills something it's their loot.

[Engels]

Imagine if you have been trying to get a specific item, such as plate legs for one of your toons, and you have put in several hours of playing before it drops only to have some one walk up and take it.

I couldn't agree more Thyl, I have said from the beginning that blatant ninja looting is unacceptable and inexcusable.  What I am arguing is that some of the complaining is nothing more than a misunderstanding, and the majority of the time can be worked out in other ways than immediate overreaction and flaming.

All I am saying is that if I was camping say, pages 1-5 for my 2.0 like I was last night in LDoN, and I LD right as I kill the mob.  I come back and the page is gone, yes I might be frustrated, but I know that in 15 minutes the mob will be back up and I can get my page again.

Certain situations are a major issue and should be dealt with accordingly, but I feel like some are a vast overreaction and can be handled far more maturely.  But that is my opinion, and it is obviously not shared by Hunter, as he has now made it clear what the rules are.

Though I chuckle at attempts by others saying in all caps, IT IS CLEARLY STATED, and then they will say things like:

The only time you should EVER loot a corpse that you didn't kill is if:
C. There is NOBODY around and you wait a decent amount of time to ensure they aren't coming back (if you know who killed it ask directly to shorten the time)

Well a 'decent' amount of time is a very ambiguous, and left up to interpretation.  Discrepancies such as this do not help make the rules clear.

Obviously the rule is not so clear to a lot of people, because not every player on EZ reads the forums.  I know that me and my 7 or 8 real life friends just started playing over here, and some of them had no idea that these forums even existed.  Instead of crying about the injustices done to you, lets think of a solution to solve the problem.  I suggested a longer corpse timer more in lines of Live, but that was apparently shot down assuming I had no idea what the corpse timer was like on Live.  I do know the corpse timer opens up to the general public on Live as well, but after a longer period of time than 2.5 minutes.  Which would alleviate some of these issues; people would have time to get their alts over, if they LD'd they would have a chance to get back in the game, etc.  What about a text box that pops up when you log into the game that states the rules.  People can read and refer to them in-game, and afterwards just click the X and it goes away.

Lets try and direct this conversation away from being reactive and pointing fingers, to something more proactive.  How can this issue be solved?  If you say something along the lines of, the rules are clearly stated, then you're wrong.  The rules are on a forum outside of the game, in which many people do not frequent.  Im sure I will offend some oldschoolers, but maybe we can figure out a way to alleviate some issues if we come up with some good ideas.

[Mirielle]

How about changing / adding to the MOTD to say something like "Attn: Make sure you read & adhere to the rules located at <insert forum link here>.

That way people know that there are forums for EZ Server, and know that there are rules etc that people are to follow.

Done.

[robpickles]

The rules are on a forum outside of the game, in which many people do not frequent. 

Hunter could just add this website/link to the MOTD and everyone who logs into thte game will know the forums are here. 

[Crabthewall]

Imagine if you have been trying to get a specific item, such as plate legs for one of your toons, and you have put in several hours of playing before it drops only to have some one walk up and take it.

I couldn't agree more Thyl, I have said from the beginning that blatant ninja looting is unacceptable and inexcusable.  What I am arguing is that some of the complaining is nothing more than a misunderstanding, and the majority of the time can be worked out in other ways than immediate overreaction and flaming.

All I am saying is that if I was camping say, pages 1-5 for my 2.0 like I was last night in LDoN, and I LD right as I kill the mob.  I come back and the page is gone, yes I might be frustrated, but I know that in 15 minutes the mob will be back up and I can get my page again.

Certain situations are a major issue and should be dealt with accordingly, but I feel like some are a vast overreaction and can be handled far more maturely.  But that is my opinion, and it is obviously not shared by Hunter, as he has now made it clear what the rules are.

Though I chuckle at attempts by others saying in all caps, IT IS CLEARLY STATED, and then they will say things like:

The only time you should EVER loot a corpse that you didn't kill is if:
C. There is NOBODY around and you wait a decent amount of time to ensure they aren't coming back (if you know who killed it ask directly to shorten the time)

Well a 'decent' amount of time is a very ambiguous, and left up to interpretation.  Discrepancies such as this do not help make the rules clear.

Obviously the rule is not so clear to a lot of people, because not every player on EZ reads the forums.  I know that me and my 7 or 8 real life friends just started playing over here, and some of them had no idea that these forums even existed.  Instead of crying about the injustices done to you, lets think of a solution to solve the problem.  I suggested a longer corpse timer more in lines of Live, but that was apparently shot down assuming I had no idea what the corpse timer was like on Live.  I do know the corpse timer opens up to the general public on Live as well, but after a longer period of time than 2.5 minutes.  Which would alleviate some of these issues; people would have time to get their alts over, if they LD'd they would have a chance to get back in the game, etc.  What about a text box that pops up when you log into the game that states the rules.  People can read and refer to them in-game, and afterwards just click the X and it goes away.

Lets try and direct this conversation away from being reactive and pointing fingers, to something more proactive.  How can this issue be solved?  If you say something along the lines of, the rules are clearly stated, then you're wrong.  The rules are on a forum outside of the game, in which many people do not frequent.  Im sure I will offend some oldschoolers, but maybe we can figure out a way to alleviate some issues if we come up with some good ideas.

The rule is clearly stated, anyone that gives you anything outside of that stated rule puts you at risk of being banned, don't use player interpretations of it simply read the rules which don't leave any room for interpretation. If you didn't understand it clearly before you should know that hunter has stated it yet again. It is really that simple.

The problem you are running into is you have played a week or two here? Most of us have played for months/years and this comes up all the time, we are frustrated with having to repeat what has been clarified over and over again repeatedly. The rules spell it out quite clearly, don't loot something you didn't kill, that's it no other interpretation is needed at all, no exceptions, no excuses. If you lack permission to loot something, simply don't. Kill it yourself.

Anyone that fails to read the rule only has themselves to blame given the motd clearly gives the website and rules are stickied here and you see the motd every single time you log in, failure to read them is a player issue not a server issue. If you don't review the rules of the server you are playing on that's on you and doesn't excuse you from following them.

Arguing over simple and clear rules as a new player will not make your life easier on the server, it makes longer term players look at you and not want to help you when you attempt to be a rules lawyer.

But since Hunter took the time to clearly spell it out for you yet again, I'd imagine you understand with 100% certainty not to loot anything you don't kill unless you have a screenshot giving you permission, i can't imagine you need it clearer than that?

[robpickles]

How about changing / adding to the MOTD to say something like "Attn: Make sure you read & adhere to the rules located at <insert forum link here>.

That way people know that there are forums for EZ Server, and know that there are rules etc that people are to follow.

Done.

LOL! Got it in before I did!

[swamphy]

It's not my server, so run it how you will with my thanks for doing so.

So this is probably a moot point...

I find myself agreeing with Engels.

If someone comes upon a downed named that seems deserted, looks around again, checks it, finds a REALLY nice upgrade on it, Looks around again and sees nobody, says 'Hail anybody?' Can I loot this?, no answer... they should be able to loot up without threat of penalty.

That's part of the thrill of the game. Finding treasure!

But my impression of the original design of the game is that the RISK of losing loots is part of the game. Consider the rogues pickpocket skill for example. Part of the thrill of playing a rogue is to roleplay the part, sneak up on a group and pick their mobs clean, all the while making a bad name for yourself. (I've never done this, but still find it an exciting part of the game).

My perception is that more than half of the people on this board have multiple well-geared 70+ toons, which would not benefit from finding abandoned treasure anyways. So the opinions here would be weighted for the rules that Hunter stated.

No matter what the rules may be... we should all follow them and be thankful.

Cheers

 

[Engels]

I understand the rules Crab, you are extremely hard headed and frustrating to deal with.  Just because I am new, should not mean that my opinions should be ignored.  Else you will wind up like Test Server (the server I have played on since 2000) and have a maximum of 50 players online at all times, just the old school clique.  While that may have its advantages for people like you that are in that clique, its not a positive thing for a healthy server.

Im done arguing with you about the rules.  I am simply stating that there is a problem, and you can either sit on here and complain about it, or offer up some solutions, other than just to ban all the bastards.  Others have offered some solutions, while you have brought nothing positive to the conversation.

And I honestly don't really care if you or any other old schoolers will hold a grudge on me because I have stated my opinion on a matter.  I play this game to have fun with a select group of my real life friends.  Regardless, if you do hold a grudge on me for stating my opinions, you're probably not the type of person I want to spend my free time playing a game with anyways.

[Crabthewall]

I understand the rules Crab, you are extremely hard headed and frustrating to deal with.  Just because I am new, should not mean that my opinions should be ignored.  Else you will wind up like Test Server (the server I have played on since 2000) and have a maximum of 50 players online at all times, just the old school clique.  While that may have its advantages for people like you that are in that clique, its not a positive thing for a healthy server.

Im done arguing with you about the rules.  I am simply stating that there is a problem, and you can either sit on here and complain about it, or offer up some solutions, other than just to ban all the bastards.  Others have offered some solutions, while you have brought nothing positive to the conversation.

And I honestly don't really care if you or any other old schoolers will hold a grudge on me because I have stated my opinion on a matter.  I play this game to have fun with a select group of my real life friends.  Regardless, if you do hold a grudge on me for stating my opinions, you're probably not the type of person I want to spend my free time playing a game with anyways.

My only opinion on banning people is to do so when they break the rules. You can discuss fairness of rules etc all you like. What you can't do is disobey them. As long as you don't ninja loot I don't have an issue with you, but arguing about how the server defines it when it is clearly stated by the gm is incorrect and disrespectful of the server and the gm.

You are welcome to try and change the rules, but don't argue about the defined definition, that's simply foolish and in this instance it was clearly defined.

to sum up, working for change = good. Trying to argue the stated rules are unclear = foolish. They were crystal clear.

Arguing for things like a longer corpse timer would accomplish nothing more than making people stand around even longer waiting for a corpse they killed to open up so their alt can then loot it. It's not a corpse timer issue, it's a respect issue, ie have respect for other people's kills. If they don't invite to you loot it, simply don't. If you ask and are granted permission, that's great and loot away, but under no circumstances assume that a lack of response = permission to loot.

The corpses you are currently seeing after a week of playing are minimal effort bosses to get to spawn since most of them are times and maybe they only do take 15 minutes to respawn but as you get higher in the game you maybe see a particular mob once a week randomly in raiding, sometimes less. And when that mob does spawn it has 1/4 or 1/16 chance of dropping what you need, it's not funny when that corpse gets looted before the alt you've been camping to get it for for a week gets stolen. Your offer to help kill it again doesn't make it spawn again, nor does it make sure it has the correct loot on it even if it does hence why people are so protective of their loot rights. Loosing a pair of T2 cleric legs for instance that may take months to get is a big deal to people.

It's fine to have an opinion but make sure you understand the scope of what is covered here, most people here aren't talking about 15 minute spawns being lost, they are talking about places like t1/t2 where they may literally spend a month camping for 1 item.

[Engels]

Trying to argue the stated rules are unclear = foolish. They were crystal clear.

Obviously.

Look man, I'm not the one complaining about the constant problem, you are.  Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  You are insane if you think that anything is going to change by complaining on the forums.  The same forums that the ninjas don't read in the first place.  As a new player, and with friends who are also new players, Im telling you this from a new player's prospective.  As an MMO veteran, I always look to forums as a resource guide for information and solutions, but many players do not.  If you fail to accept this fact then I'm not sure what else to tell you bud.

The corpses you are currently seeing after a week of playing are minimal effort bosses to get to spawn since most of them are times and maybe they only do take 15 minutes to respawn but as you get higher in the game you maybe see a particular mob once a week randomly in raiding, sometimes less. And when that mob does spawn it has 1/4 or 1/16 chance of dropping what you need, it's not funny when that corpse gets looted before the alt you've been camping to get it for for a week gets stolen.

Once again, let me reiterate, instances such as this are unacceptable and inexcusable, as I have said at least 3 times already.  But as for all the complaining I have seen about mobs in Time, LDoN and Qvic, it is my opinion that there are better ways to handle the issue.

[Crabthewall]

Trying to argue the stated rules are unclear = foolish. They were crystal clear.

Obviously.

Look man, I'm not the one complaining about the constant problem, you are.  Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  You are insane if you think that anything is going to change by complaining on the forums.  The same forums that the ninjas don't read in the first place.  As a new player, and with friends who are also new players, Im telling you this from a new player's prospective.  As an MMO veteran, I always look to forums as a resource guide for information and solutions, but many players do not.  If you fail to accept this fact then I'm not sure what else to tell you bud.

The corpses you are currently seeing after a week of playing are minimal effort bosses to get to spawn since most of them are times and maybe they only do take 15 minutes to respawn but as you get higher in the game you maybe see a particular mob once a week randomly in raiding, sometimes less. And when that mob does spawn it has 1/4 or 1/16 chance of dropping what you need, it's not funny when that corpse gets looted before the alt you've been camping to get it for for a week gets stolen.

Once again, let me reiterate, instances such as this are unacceptable and inexcusable, as I have said at least 3 times already.  But as for all the complaining I have seen about mobs in Time, LDoN and Qvic, it is my opinion that there are better ways to handle the issue.

I've made no complaint on the forums here about ninja looting, all I've done is try to point out that the rules were defined and clear in response to people saying they didn't understand it, or they felt when the timer expired it was fair game.

If people are quickly banned for ninja looting no matter what zone my guess is the problem will go away in all zones like Time/Ldon/Qvic etc accomplishing and end to complaining basically. It's only an issue when people think they can get away with it is all.

[Engels]

If people are quickly banned for ninja looting no matter what zone my guess is the problem will go away in all zones like Time/Ldon/Qvic etc accomplishing and end to complaining basically. It's only an issue when people think they can get away with it is all.

I agree, it will quickly eradicate the problem, and I understand your position on how it is the rule and if you break it you should be punished to the upmost extent of the law.  However, for many issues that are a common misunderstanding, I just don't believe going directly to the boss man and getting someone banned is a good thing for anybody.  If you start banning anyone who breaks any rule then you will be left with a desolate server, and nobody wants that.  Its pretty hard to recruit when there are 30 people left on a server.

We are all adults here.  According to the Age Poll on the forums we only have 1 teen.  We should act like adults and try to work trivial issues out and I bet a lot of the issues could be solved.

[robpickles]

If you start banning anyone who breaks any rule then you will be left with a desolate server, and nobody wants that. 

No...you will be left with a group of people who obey the rules and the drama and kiddie crap will eventually go away, until new people come on and you go thru it all over again.

We are all adults here.  According to the Age Poll on the forums...

Yay! At least one of my threads was good for something! 

[Crabthewall]

If people are quickly banned for ninja looting no matter what zone my guess is the problem will go away in all zones like Time/Ldon/Qvic etc accomplishing and end to complaining basically. It's only an issue when people think they can get away with it is all.

I agree, it will quickly eradicate the problem, and I understand your position on how it is the rule and if you break it you should be punished to the upmost extent of the law.  However, for many issues that are a common misunderstanding, I just don't believe going directly to the boss man and getting someone banned is a good thing for anybody.  If you start banning anyone who breaks any rule then you will be left with a desolate server, and nobody wants that.  Its pretty hard to recruit when there are 30 people left on a server.

We are all adults here.  According to the Age Poll on the forums we only have 1 teen.  We should act like adults and try to work trivial issues out and I bet a lot of the issues could be solved.

I don't disagree that many issues may be a common misunderstanding, it's just this particular one isn't. It's been defined ad nauseam as you can tell by now There is no ninja looting misunderstanding unless people didn't bother to read the rules of the server they play on (which are posted on the forums the motd links you too).

In general I agree we should work out trivial issues, but ninja looting shouldn't be treated as a trivial issue, if you treat it firmly and immediately the problem goes away. If you tolerate it and consider it trivial, people will consistently push the envelope and the problem persists. Simply suspending a player for a week for the first time they ninja followed by 2 weeks, followed by a perma ban wouldn't take long till people understood not to do it is my guess. As you say we are adults, we should all be capable of reading and understanding rules right?

[robpickles]

If you tolerate it and consider it trivial, people will consistently push the envelope and the problem persists.

The only problem I find with that statement is there is always SOMEONE who will 'push the envelope' to see what they can get away with.

I liked the idea of putting the name of the person who killed the mob on the corpse timer, if that is even possible.  It would help with people contacting that individual to see if they can get permission to loot.

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