EZ Server

I understand you are spending all the free time you have on T6, but I've been thinking about what you said last time I brought the subject of warriors being crappy tanks up in ooc, and on the boards here. You suggested incorporating a 2hs wep with worn stonewall or instant click and I think this is really a more appropriate way to go, not that warriors are exceptional at anything even with the 2 1hs, but hey the augs are free.

How about a 2hs from 2 1hs hand-ins (or make it a combine in the scabbord or something) that has 3 aug slots (we need aggro augs in there) and same stats and dps as a 1hs (which would add up to a bit more than half the dps of 2 1hs).  This way we sacrifice dps and stats (from having a second 1hs and less augs) for mitigation.

Another idea combined with this is to introduce something like a nerds vi aug which would take 2 nerds v augs, 2 magical stones, 2sls and 2 gods major essences that would have the anger of a nerds iv and the aoe of the nerds v.

As always, thanks for your time.

I'm not sure where you are going here.  From my perspective what Warriors need is greater mitigation/survivability.

When you drop a 1HS in favor of a 2HS you're going to lose aug slots as well as HP.  While that can be accounted for by doubling up on both in the 2HS ... I fail to see the benefit.  Unless you're simply campaigning for the 2H look?

The route I would think most appropriate for the class would be less refresh time on the epic Stonewall.

Kwai,

What you are missing is game mechanics.  The reason that SK and Pallies can out tank warriors later on in game is almost entirely the dual weild vs 2hs difference in ripostes taken.  When you add a full round of melee from a mob plus a lucky round where they riposte 2 or 3 of your attacks as well, you are now taking 7 full damage hits instead of 4.  That spike is what kills warriors.  If you were 2hs that would be 4 + 1 riposte and you'd live.

A 2hs tanking option would allow warriors to make a decision, 1hs with damage augs to act as a dps toon, or 2hs with aggro augs to be a tank. 

Warriors dps.... LOL

Well, as they stand now, yeah, it's funny...  If you have more than a couple of warriors though, and let's say they don't all have the same level of HP, etc...  If they are in with regular angry nerd augs, they will draw aggro and die...  If you switch it up, and they throw in some icestrike augs for damage, they can be useful.

The most effective and easiest solution. Just remove the cooldown on warrior epic. Doesn't add any dps to the class that is now one of the lowest dps choices (which is fine), but puts them back in the position they were made for.... TANK.  

I would disagree with improvements to their defense to make up for the fact that they arent willing to sacrifice dps. Put down one sword and put in a shield? Less ripostes and shield block = win. And you should still be able to hold agro. They are still the best tanks when they want to be.

I could see giving them a 2h weapon thats equal in all ways to their epics combined, just for variety.

Also, I think for max effect that 2hs wouldn't necessarily be for tanking but for DPS.

Swinging a big old weapon shouldn't allow you to be more defensive; it should be less so.

Drop the other 1hs and pick up a shield. My PAL is sword and board all the way and he tanks like a champ (of course he heals himself too).

I think it would be awesome to create a plate class only shield that procs a stonewall or heal.

WARs could be more self sufficient and still do AoE taunt and dmg. PALs would be just a bit more self sufficient and possibly not require a 2nd PAL in group at T4 plus just to survive (same with SKs).

You could even play with the heal amount to be more competitive in game. I understand that AC has an effective soft cap in game as well, could play with increasing that soft cap (if possible).

I take it you dont have an uc paladin. (permanent stonewall + constant healing = best tank)

perhaps turn in your epic sword for an epic shield like clerics have.
Warriors don't loose hp, stats and aug slots

Oh I would love the shield idea. Does suck when your main is a warrior and all your lower tierd toons can own you

Paladins are already the most self-sufficient single class out there and SK's are right behind them.  You don't need a 2nd pal for heals in t4, you just need a UC on that first pally!  :D

I really like the idea of a plate class only shield with a heal proc on it.

Skeezy Ratty Troll

You could always reinvent the wheel and play around with a new modifier on mitigation for defensive...

Not that that would solve every problem, but if the warrior could have a higher mitigation defensive discipline than pally stonewall (and 0 movement hinderance, which is the main taboo annoying us in reference to stonewall) ... you could toss in the shield idea so they wouldnt be a riposte-magnet, and they'd have a higher mitigating discipline (hurray?) than stonewall... and they are suddenly the best tanks again.

To further the idea of the shield - you could easily (well, in my mind only) make it available from the onset by adding it to the epic hand-in chain.

Example: hand in 1hs to epic dood and get shield - hand in shield and get 1hs

I like the idea of an epic warrior shield....and improvements to mitigation and defenses when equipped (but NO self heal....lets not unbalance the class!). Make it so that they can out tank a pally self healing. Maybe also fix furious bash? Unsure if that can be done :P

With the soft cap on ac being hit somewhere around Tacvi the only improvement you would see with a shield is placebo.

I have been cussing and discussing this very same subject with one of my guildies since she switched to the 1HS/Shield.  She fully believed that the shield gave her greater survivability and I stuck with the 2HS citing PAL Bash gave me another healing proc.

I can't cite concrete numbers across these many months (and a PC upgrade), but I recently switched to shield and I can attest to greater survivability since the move.  Doing HoH in the past... I generally pulled 4 avatars of Heaven and dispatched... rinsed and repeated.  Since the switch I pull all of them from zone to the first avatar of Earth blocking the path and dispatch them there. 

As I said... I do not have hard numbers to share, but my experience has been that 5 avatars used to be very iffy if not deadly and now 7 or 8 are doable.  /shrug  Just my tupence.

That would be a 25%+ increase in tankability. If there was that much of a difference there would not be any debate as to the shield benefit over 2hs. I have used both, and never seen any difference beyond a 3% or so change in damage dealt to me which is well within the rng margin.

Pretty sure the difference he is seeing is because of shield block AA, and only slightly because of AC increase.

Either way, there is not a 25%+ reduction in damage taken by using a shield. I'll log on and parse it sometime and post for proof.

Lets get back on Warrior topic....

I think we're still on track with the warrior discussion Fugi.  I just noted that if my Pal (Only real point of reference for me, since my War sits during T5 runs) saw greater survival through using a shield then it would make sense that the War would too. 

Next Ice Cube or T3-T4 run I will loot a shield on the War and report back.

BTW - my make it a shield suggestion WAS based on the ability to tweak the AC soft cap and/or at a minimum add a significant amount of HPs to boost the survive-ability.

I can tell you this - my buddy and I have matching PALs right now (4.0 & t3/t4 gear) - I sword and board, he 2hs. I honestly believe we have the exact same survive-ability.

Part of the bene a warrior would realize though with a shield is no off-hand riposte eating and shield blocks - but that basically puts them on par with PAL/SK that don't dual wield.

Give them the HATE MEAT SHIELD. Give it 20k+ hps, every time it takes a hit, increase hate, and absorb 1-10% of the damage dealt or something. Make them the anger magnet :) ALthough, the leach effect could make them invulnerably - you know, like a UC Pal with Kaldars :)

I just parsed it out with my pally and confirmed that a shield makes absolutely no difference. I parsed on the same t3 boss for both fights and did so for 19 minutes and some change on one and 21 minutes and some change on the other. Average hit taken while using 5.0 1hs and a t5 shield is 34,921. Average hit taken while using while using 5.0 2hs is 35,186. That is a difference of .75%. That makes it virtually the same thing and is low enough of a % that it could swing back and forth. There is no benefit to using a 1hs and shield from a tanking stand point.

How about dps taken? That should show if shield block is effective or not.

Also - survive-ability is also amount of hps so that when you do have a shield in your offhand - you do have 5k+ more hps - although - at T1 - thats half a hit :)

BTW - Xiggie's post WAS on dps taken (hit taken) - on average over time would be the same thing. The one thing to consider then  would be DPS dealt at that same time.

How much more damage from each variety weapons for each class?

Warrior dual wielding vs with a shield vs 2hs.

Pal / SK sword and board vs 2hs.

I can image dps taken for a dual wielding is going to be higher than anything else - making it not as efficient to tank. I can then imagine that War / Pal / SK dps dealt with 2hs would be higher than sword and board considering we all get that triple attack, right?

Xiggie: thank you for that parse.

Well actually my post does not have complete information. Not that I left anything out but there was some data that didn't realize I could calculate and have done so since posting. I also analyzed the dps data and found some surprises as well. I am going to make a new post because because thread is about warriors whereas my parse is about paladins.

As for a warrior carrying around a shield, eq is not built to really support it. A paladin is going to get more benefit from a shield, a warrior not so much. I think it would be a bad idea. A small leach might be a better way to go on it.

Actually the info he posted just showed average hit taken, not average dps taken. The difference is if shield block actually works then it negates a "would have been" hit, and that removes it from his equation altogether.

In other words Im trying to say that any difference made by shield block would not be apparent just by looking at average hit taken, only average dps taken.

where a Paladin does NOT get double wield the dps would be different than a Warrior, but it would be interesting to see what a Warrior would do with a shield in offhand and maybe help overall survivability of the class, (riposite and such)