EZ Server

 I just ran a few 10 minutes parses with my rogue and wanted to share the results:

The setup:
Rogue is full T2 with a few T3 items using 3.0's with mossy stone V and black diamond of regeneration on each. She was stripped of all buffs and standing in the exact same spot for both logs. I used the dummy in chambersb and did not use daggerfall or any discs. Auto attack and backstab only

Base using no charm:

DPS: 2823.2
Crit %: 12.5

Using rank 21 brawlers charm:

DPS: 3293
Crit %: 13.1


I would also like to comment on the general lack of DPS the rogue class can offer. I brought my warrior in just to see the difference and it was extreme. I am fairly certain rangers and some pet classes can match this, but I do not have any to parse:

Full T2 warrior with some T3, stripped of all buffs using 3.0's with anger IV and rank 41 sorcerer charm with autoattack only:

DPS: 7970
Crit %: 9.4

Discuss!

Would like to note that I love my rogue and my wizard regardless of how useless they are =P Would just like to see rogues and the brawlers charm brought up to par with other charms/classes

What parser do you use. I would like to try my monk and mage to see how those numbers stack up.

Pffft. You parsed MY dps too! What was it... 1120? Every other class had over 5000 or something. At that rate, I'd be better off getting a sorcer's charm to 50 and spam-clicking guide bolt! (T2 legs is a nuke if nobody gets it)

Did you do any backstabs or something? I thought rogues could do 40k or 120k backstabs or something insane.

Was using Gamparse

Uxt, I parsed you in PoG though and there are tons of other factors there ^.^

In all fairness though you are comparing a much higher level charm and not using backstab etc to even out your damage. Using abilities that are part of your class needs to be part of your DPS parse. You would need to compare with a 41 brawlers charm and using your disciplines to see how the dps comes out by comparison.

I was using backstab, just not daggerfall which is a backstab modifier. Daggerfall has a cast time and can lower my dps as often as it raises it

I will test again once I have 41 brawlers which should only be a few days

If you use daggerfall between backstabs you are only missing some not too significant white damage.

The point is being missed entirely, I wanted to keep variables down to a minimum for parsing.

The brawlers charm shows an approximate 5% increase to dps per focus level (likely due to the haste or attack rating), in comparison to 50% per focus level of other charms. There is no alternative for melee dps since they have no augs or procs that can be affected in any significant manner by sorcerer (75 dmg diamond is the best I know of)

I parsed a realistic scenario using discs and daggerfall today on The Tranquil in T3:

Both rogues, one with 38 brawler and one with 21 brawler scored under 4k dps using all disciplines and clickies they have available. The rogue with 38 brawler had 53 more dps then the 21.

Thanks for testing it, I love my rogue Cutterr, though I know there has been a drastic difference in dps in comparison to my monks.  I played a rogue on live back in the day and wish they had the power here that they had back then.

The log on The Tranquil (the monk and rangers had much higher dps then this shows, they were out of range for me to get a good read on anything but criticals):

Warrior with 41 sorc charm:

DPS: 6952
Crit%: 11.3

Rogue1 with 38 Brawler charm:

DPS: 3742
Crit%: 15.4%

Rogue2 with 21 Brawler charm:

DPS: 3699
Crit%: 14.8%

Monk with 10 Guardian charm:

DPS: 3543
Crit%: 49.6% (I was out of range for most of the normal damage)

Ranger 1 with rank 1 brawler charm:

DPS: 3556
Crit%: 76.8 (I was out of ranger for most of the normal damage)

Ranger 2 with rank 2 brawler charm:

DPS: 2719
Crit%: 70.7 (Out of range and he was stuck behind a hill and couldn't shoot for a minute)

Fight lasted 21 minutes

I used the test dummy in chambersb for testing purposes since it is accessible by everyone. I also did it without any outside buffs so there was an even playing ground. I tested my monk, my rogue and my mage. The fights were all 5 minutes long and I only tested one toon at a time. I did not use any non-repeatable disc. If it wasn't a disc I could use over and over again I didn't use it since it would not properly show the dps achievable in every fight. Specifically I did not use inner flame on the monk but I did use his flying kick and dragon fang, I used daggerfall disc and the daggerfall right click on the rogue. The mage pet I used elemental fury and earthern strength since they are self buffs that are not on a timer. I did not use the Ldon bp click for the pet since it is timer limited and would not be able to be used in every fight.

As an added note I used the practice dummy so my numbers are inherently different from Allizia since he tested in T3. As you can see the rogue is already out dps'ing the monk even though his charm is lvl 10 however it is conditional on being on the mobs backside.

Monk (25 brawlers charm)
Total Dmg: 1220694
Time: 304 seconds
Dps: 4015
Hits: 1601
Max: 2073
Average: 762

Rogue (10 brawlers charm)
Total Dmg: 1216915
Time: 300
Dps: 4056
Hits: 999
Max: 40242
Average: 1218

Mage (pet cast with boots from ldon, elemental fury and earthern strength)
Total Dmg: 1627823
Time: 302
Dps: 5390
Hits: 1173
Max: 3108
Average: 1387

Test the rogue and monk again without brawlers charms xiggie, would like to see the results

You also had a max daggerfall backstab crit which is rare, try it over a 10 minute period instead

Send me a tell in game and I'll come let ya parse me to have a ranger for testing.  I have a brawlers lvl 11, and am maxed out T2 gear / arrow / quiver / mossy tundra stone.

Char name is Qualin.

Ok, doubled the time and parsed my monk 2 times. One with no charm, one with lvl 17 guardian charm and finally again with lvl 25 brawlers. I turned my crits on to get a crit percentage also.





Monk (no charm)
Total Dmg: 1938428
Time: 602 seconds
Dps: 3220
Hits: 2695
Crit %: 46.2
Max: 2073 (did crit dragon fang of 2400)
Average: 719

Monk (17 guardian charm)
Total Dmg: 1941265
Time: 602 seconds
Dps: 3225
Hits: 2756
Crit %: 44.2
Max: 2073
Average: 704

Monk (25 brawlers charm)
Total Dmg: 2487701
Time: 601 seconds
Dps: 4132
Hits: 3207
Crit %: 44.7
Max: 2073
Average: 775

I don't get why it has such a drastic increase for your monk and such a minute increase for rogue, your critical hit % actually went down using it so it must be the haste/attack

Even then it's still around only a 25% or so increase for 25 ranks of brawler

I don't know if it is possible at all but a single target 1500 proc would be really nice.

Ranger parse:

self buffed using bow click, full T2, rank 1 brawler, tacvi arrow and quiver

DPS: (4480.2) 2240.1 X 2 (Target dummy is rooted for half damage)
Crit %: 99.1

After learning about monks and rangers a bit, I think my previous log on The Tranquil was accurate and I was in range, I just didn't know both classes had access to such high critical %'s.

It seems like the melee dps classes are somewhat on par with each other, they just don't really improve much after 3.0's. I'm also not sure what benefit rangers would get from increased brawlers charm criticals if 3.0 bow click is 100%

It would still be nice to see rogues and monks come out on top though.

They are the ones with situational damage, they must deal with enrage, they require constant user input, they must stay in range (requires constant vigilance on T3 bosses) and rogues absolutely must be behind the target or the dps drops to nothing.

It would also be nice to see more of a bonus or a different effect given to brawlers charm. There is one class that gains nothing from additional criticals (rangers) and it just isn't on par with other charms.

Before the parsing data I was thinking the + to crit was working on the brawlers charm but after looking at it it seems the damage boost comes purely from the haste. I forgot to mention what haste was involved. 70% on the without a charm parse and the guardian parse. 125% on the lv25 brawlers. My average hit went up just a little bit but my over all dps and total number of hits is where I got my damage increase. My % to crit actually went down but I feel like it fits within the RNG range.

I am all about some monk damage. I played a monk on live and always come back to eq because there is just no other monks on any other game. I like monking. That being said, in all fairness I am glad the rogue can out dps a monk because rogue dps is even more situational than monks. A rogue takes a lot more management than a monk does, so it makes sense that you put more work in it and you get more out of it. I do however wish there was a way to scale up melee dps for rogue and monk to make them at least be able to compete with warrior dps.

Just for giggles:

10 minute parse from my wizard, self buffed, Full T2 with most "of the arch magi" accessories for mana regen, partial mana regen auged, 3 pieces of T3 loot and the T3 wizard spell (15,000ish base damage X2 for 25,000 base mana)

Wizard was meleeing using 3.0 with mossy stone and black diamond of regeneration between casts (lol) This was mainly to keep the practice dummy agro so I didn't have to combine fights in the parser, but it did add 67 dps.

DPS: 1308.7
Crit%: 8.1

manastone down and have someone heal you and cast as soon as you get enough mana.  your dps will go waaaaay up.

I need to figure out how to compare a dps group with and without a bard.

I feel you can do better than this (not much better) just having a Druid regen buff. My wiz has mostly T1 some T2. Manaburns for about 84K. With Druid regen can get back to full mana in well under the one minute reuse time spamming CG manastone.

So without casting any other spells is about 1400 dps.

What are the stats on the T3 spell? I don't have that. Base damage? Cast time? damage type(fire, magic...)?

Unfortunately Wizzies get way too many resists.

Getting off track again, all parses are stand alone dps, no heals, no druids, no bard songs, no enchanter haste, no outside buffs.

I am fairly confident I could break 10k dps on warrior with bard songs, but that's not the point of this.

There is however quite a bit I can do, the wizard is still a work in progress, I will parse him again at 41 sorc with max mana regen augs/gear

Wow Brawler's trouble again? Guess i was stupid to have thought the last fix would put this to rest..

It's clear it's increasing dps/crits no matter by how much. It's not MEANT to make you EQJesus so if that's what people are going for i'm sorry but you're looking for the wrong results. I think the charm is doing just fine though i'm at that point where i think the charm should just get removed entirely cause it's clear it'll never be completely fixed by everyone's standards. =/

If you all seriously without a shadow of a doubt 100% think this needs fixed...again...i'll look into it one last time, but you're going to all have to tell me exactly what you guys are expecting word for word for each and every rank this time, no more assumptions from me. That way if it's still broke it's your guys' problem.

P.S. you can only add TWELVE effects to a spell and the critical increases alone take up 11, it's also going to be damn near impossible to make a Brawler's charm react differently to give worthwhile effects to every single class unless you want to make a quest script that checks your class against the database and gives you the same charm with a different effect based upon your class and by that point it's just getting ridiculous.

In my opinion it could use a general melee damage modifier if possible. Something along the lines of 10-15% additional melee damage per focus rank to go along with the haste / attack / crit rating. There should be a reason for people to want the brawlers charm other then a lack of options. Remember that these are far from easy to get, most people will never max one, and they should show some obviously noticeable results

This thread was not about complaining, it was just about showing data and the numbers to those that make the decisions ^.^ I will continue playing my rogue and wizard regardless

I'm no expert on the mechanics of it, but maybe crits isnt the way to go on this charm if it isn't effective in raising total DPS by a huge percentage btt it is maxxed out at 41 or 50.

And I don't think it is intended as a complaint thread, but rather a measure of how its going on this charm.

Personally, I think the brawlers really should double melee DPS at rank 50 because the classes that need it are really that far behind. Maybe if we can get enough real parse info on the various melee classes, say 10 mins each class with and without charm, it can be shown where we are really at.

Well i agree some classes COULD use it but it shouldn't fall onto the Brawler Charm to fix that, there needs to be a class specific fix to deal with that. Because it wouldn't fix the issue anyway. If you feel a class needs it's dps doubled then there should be a thread (and there is) with ideas to fix that which only those classes can obtain, otherwise the problem is still going to be there because the classes that already have high dps can obtain the same charm with the same bonuses and keep themselves securely better than the other classes.

Alliza i see what you mean but also realize i laid out the percentages WAY back when i made the thread showing what i was doing to the charm and asked like 50 times "If you want any changes you have a day or two to make suggestions before i submit the code to Hunter" and not once did anyone speak up. So that being said my offer stands, if anyone really wants this fixed i will do it one last time but this time people better be 100% positive of what they want before any emails with code gets sent cause i'm only doing it once. I know for a fact Hunter is getting pretty sick of the Brawler's Charm debates because they pop up every week so lets all work together to make sure no one ever has to bring up this charm again, agreed? lol

Maybe make the effect on brawlers charm = triple attack or something, or maybe make brawlers charm have a proc on it that has a chance to proc something that maybe makes you attack insanely fast for a few seconds or procs a dmg proc, idk, just seems like out of all the charms brawler's is the least beneficial? Well, IDK what on guardians.

I dont think allizia was around when you brought that up Danyelle and i think the more outspoken people that were testing it are no longer on this server.

Danyelle have you tested your fixed brawlers charm on rangers? It appears to have no impact on them as far as raising their DPS even when they are wearing a level 50 brawlers.

I wasn't here then ^.^

I'm a big tester, it's something I like to do, but I'm not trying to track mud on a floor that someone just swept.

Once you get 3.0's and a few select items, dps classes hit a dps cap while bosses and content continue to get harder and increase greatly in HPs. The brawlers charm is a way to allow these classes as a whole to keep up with that increase. T3 bosses have a ballpark figure of 50,000,000 hps.

I think if we can get charms balanced out then we can start working on individual classes.

I imagine the reason brawlers charm does not work with rangers is that I don't believe the haste effects ranged weapons and you already have access to 100% critical hits, so the focus does nothing. A raise to the min/max hit or a general damage increase to all melee damage should allow the effect to reach all dps classes equally

Yeah she wasn't here, i'm not mad at her lol i'm not really mad at all :P i'm just saying the people that were here at the time never spoke up so i had assumed the percentages were fine.

@Crab Sadly no i neglected to do an archery test initially =/ I have heard archery was either barely affected or not affected at all. The effect i added to the charm is a crit increase (exact same as Champion) and a gradually increasing base damage effect. It seems the crits are working for archery thus barely increasing dps but the base damage effect doesn't work for archery at all. I had assumed that it affected all non-spell damage and it appears that assumption was incorrect. I don't know if it's an Emu bug or it was never meant to affect archery. Either way i'll see what i can do about that as it has been brought to my attention after i released it and i'll be sure to test archery this time.

Like i said guys i'll work on it again but you'll all have to tell me what you guys want so i can work around that. Exact numbers are preferable so there's no distaste there. Also keep in mind while making suggestions that spells can have only 12 effects and some of those effects may be taken up by "restrictions" (I.E. what skills it affects or minimum levels etc etc depending on the other effects. That's why the Champion effect takes up 11 spaces total.)

If you guys want exact numbers on the current set up and/or possible spell effects let me know i'll post those too for reference. Like i said let's try and make this the last time BC is brought up ;P

I like this.

Incidentally I wanted to say that I meant no offense to anyone who has put in so much hard work and effort on this server. I have nothing but respect for anyone how contributes be it on the forums or in development. At risk of outright plagiarism I would like to submit a pic in the same style Danyelle does in hopes it makes you laugh.

Pic somewhat related but certainly not insulting:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/Xiggie/walkonwater.jpg)

Would this be possible? I may not have the coding right, but I'm sure you will understand:


Worn effect:
* 10% archery damage increase per rank
* 10% melee damage increase per rank
* 10% backstab increase per rank (this may cause issues or reduced effectiveness if it won't stack with daggerfall)
* 50 or 100% flying kick increase per rank (don't monks have some beef about flying kick damage? kill 2 birds with one stone)
* All spell damage excluded

Ranks at 1 / 11 / 21 / 31 / 41 / ultimate or 1 / 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50

This would give a 50% base increase, which would be inflated by the haste included with the charm. I have a feeling the end result would be a 75-125% increase in dps at rank 50 and bring melee dps classes to up to the 7-9k range needed to be useful past PoD.

Lower charm levels will not see extra dps from the haste, since 70% haste is extremely easy to get from almost any class armor starting with qvic or PoTime. This will give it a sloping increase in effectiveness once you have rank 20 or so + which is good

Rangers will get the 50% increase in damage, but will not benefit from the haste (with a bow anyway). Rangers are parsing 500-1k dps higher then monks/rogues so I think this is fine and may bring them more in line

I'll see what i can do though i'll let you know right now i'm leaving spell damage out of it, that's what the Sorcerer's Charm is for. If we put spell damage on BC then SC would have no purpose and it would probably end up being removed which would cause people that had been using it to lose the item and be forced to now work on Brawler's. Just pointless really.

Included the spell damage exclusion which I completely agree with

Another option that may prevent a backstab issue:

Base backstab damage +825 per rank (10% of max non-modified backstab)

This would also give rogues a half decent backstab from the front (it's usually 171 damage or so)

HAHA! Photobucket wasn't loading for awhile so i was waiting until i could see the pic to comment ;P

Yeah i think i spent too much time on a particular image-board, the posting style is rubbing off on my every day forum posts :P

EDIT: also i've been looking into this for you guys, i'll post what i can when i reach a reasonable result.

Awesome, thank you very much for looking into it. Glad you liked my pic too. Don't know why it was not working for a while but even loading photobucket.com was crapping out.

Just wondering but does anyone have a parse for a bard with atleast a 25 sorc charm doing 4 DoT's and using Denon's desperate Dirge in between twisting the 4 dots while auto attacking and with full pet buffs since we can get CG pet buff and always have the buffs on?

Unless I am mistaken all bard aoe damage songs were changed to single target. I am not sure if sorc charm effects bard songs but I heard they don't. I am going to guess it would not be a lot of dps.

Ya I know that desperate dirge has been changed to single target and if Sorc charm doesnt effect bard songs then nvm then lol, maybe they can put an instrument mod on brawlers then that somehow stacks with epics to make songs more powerful :P

So is brawlers charm not good for rangers then?  How does a ranger reach 100% crit rate naturally?

The brawler charm SHOULD do exactly what the T3 ranger spell "secret's secret ranger secrets" does minus the haste. Using that spell i see a 30% increase in both melee and range damage.  I mean my max crit increased from 8562 to 11,530 something.

I think this was supposed to be the desired result, but i dont see any difference when i equip it or not.

As a ranger i use a gaurdian 25.  Its the only char i play and push the gamut for HP/AC. If its a boxed ranger and ypu dont have an RoA on him then save your gaurdians/sorcerers for your tank, and use the brawlers to get extra item haste on your ranger auto turret.

Ah I see, so brawlers is basically only going to give rangers more haste than comparable gear, but T3 buff equals out the crit benefits?  What kind of item haste can you otherwise obtain?

As a side question, can you change your charm into a different one?   Like say, use Brawlers until I get T3 and then switch?

Does the slot 12 part of the focus effect on the Brawlers Charm level LV25 work? Its listed as:
increase all skills damage modifier by 30%
I do not see a difference when I have the item equipped or not.

I know on Live Ferocity VII had a similar effect, but it was:
Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 200%
which you would see when you would swap that item in and out.

Depends, are you a ranger? It doesnt work for bow attacks yet.

No, warrior, but I still do not see a difference in the damage that is being done, max hit is the same with or without the charm being on.

The only thing that is working on the Brawlers charm is the haste component. The haste component has no effect on ranger bow attacks. So yes, that means that rangers get absolutely no use from a brawlers charms.