EZ Server

DPS Comparisons and Parses

I've been seeing a bit of OOC about caster DPS being not equal, monk DPS being too high, etc etc etc. So....let's make it public and discuss what is truly weak and what is just hearsay.

Rules:

• Use GamParse to parse 10 minute fights. Anything less is subject to high or low randoms, anything more may be too big for GamParse to handle. (Link at bottom)
• ATTACH PARSE AS ZIPPED FILE.
• Post a basic oversight of the DPS (GamParse can do this automagically).
• Pet DPS can be visually separated from pet owners, but pet class DPS is the sum of the pet melee & procs + caster spells and procs.
• Post relevant gear/buff info (Ultimate Charm rank, special gear/items/halloween-pets, all equipped aug ranks, and all buffs going).

Once we have enough information, any glaring deficiencies or explosive gains will be addressed in a VERY open and VERY logical fashion. (No knee-jerk-nerfbats!)


-Hate


GamParse ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzdPtSifsCeQYkxOTWdjLTYwYnM/view?usp=sharing )

Once I re-install windows (MSE has failed me 4 viruses now) I will run game parse and compare ns10 uc2 mnk to my uc2 mage/enc, as well as compare my zerker to my uc2 necro all have mana neck 10's and ns or fs10's equal gear and give you a fair comparison.

lol jesus.. .yes, lets halt everything on the dev's plate and take a look at beastlords...

/wrists.

I just ran a parse on the amount of plat and resources it takes to make fire and ninja XIs... and my god.. it turns out they cost MORE than the mana necks. My jaw like, totally hit the floor.

Nah, don't worry. This isn't halting anything. It comes down to me just wanting to get some feedback on the feel (and the metrics) for each class. If need be, I'll use mah mad hax and generate some characters to parse on if we cannot get the info.


-Hate

Id be very happy to help with this, ive got a t9 9.0 of every class, all at least UC1, but by there will be no knee jerk stuff you mean we can all discuss things normally kinda how we all do, and our opinions will matter? or we parse then oh well i wanna try this way so yeah youll all need to re make at least 6 new chars cause im destroying 3 key classes that all groups are based on. I dont mind getting rid of OP things, but really, whens the last time we got some good ass boosts? id like to see some good boosting instead of some good nerfing.

also, imo,  casters are not usefull because  when im clearing trash, i pull 10 mobs, i click assist, my melee assist me, then my wizard begins to cast a spell, that spell is done casting when i have about 5 mobs left to kill, (ie wizard spell never even landed)

even necro death 1, 2 , and 3, on a uc2 necro, using epidimic on a stupid big pull, not worth using, for a casters damage to matter it has to be upped to such a higher dmg that its gonna look scary. and you know what, if you try upping their dmg, and its SUPER overpowered, dang, a day of super high wizard dps. just revert the dmg if its taken to high, no big deal.

I am parsing a Rog, Mnk, Rng, Bst, Brd all with uc1, t7 weapons and only 1 ninja IX in primary. Have chanter for additional buffs. I don't use casters they suck :P.

Yeah kind of worried about this too :(

Nobody is nerfing shit, all this thread exists for is a place for people who want to boost casters to give solid, realistic and concrete numbered feedback as to how this needs to happen.  People bitch all the time about casters not being worth using, this is an opportunity to clearly point out exactly why that is.  If you don't want to bother parsing and adding to the discussion, then keep your tinfoil hats on and go sit in the corner.  Perhaps I'm alone, but I would much rather see Hate use his limited time on EZ to address content issues rather than tying it up doing arbitrary parses that anyone who sees issues they want addressed could be performing themselves.  You don't need Admin status to run gamparse and show the disparity between equally tiered and geared classes of melee versus caster type characters and using those concrete numbers to extrapolate on what kind of adjustments need to be made to address any issues you might find.

ok here is my 10 minute parse. FYI even at 10 minutes the numbers were changing a significant amount, not sure its long enough.
War T8 weapons with Anger 6 in both UC2
Rest are all t7 weapons, epic 6.0 UC1 with only 1 Ninja IX in primary, secondary has no augs (all I could afford)
Classes are;
Rog, Mnk, Ran, Bst, Brd
Ran was twisting epic and burning tender II and gale force II
Bst was casting viscious ice II
 
1st run self buffs only on ranger (secrests secret buff) and Crab Fu on mnk.
Scaled
Rog       474467
mnk      439146
rng        391314
bst        355943
bst pet   121188
Brd        348241

2nd run same buffs as above but added tempest blade III
Mnk     493258
rog       462553
ran       423129
bst       390545
pet       90161
brd       349737

3rd run same as above but added bard ancient call of power
rog       525699
mnk      518477
ran       426558
bst       385218
pet       89976
brd      373752

4th run same buffs as above added chanter Timeless hast and Vamp Thunder
Mnk    638347
rog     586669
ran     496476
brd       464821
bst      453211
pet      91528


So bst looks good as long as you include pet but they still die too fast, i never use pet. ranger looks a bit weak but I agree with Dimur it all looks good enough, no need to mess with it. fix the other stuff and work on content :)

Point i was making was, im not contributing time to help nerf classes i use. I would enjoy contributing my time to buffing classes that arent used. im not tin foil hat paranoia when you see nerfs, never buffs. thats not a bash at hate, thats just the way it has happened in the past.

not gonna try to make it sound all sweet, smart, or cherry coated, but thats how i feel and i mean no offense to anyone.

and the problem with caster vs melee isnt them not being equal dps, its that casters have to be insane dmg to even (in real clear scenario not practice dummy) be close to melee dps.

But ill get on parsing some casters, thought im not sure if u want me to cast their top tier spells to test dps or what i think is the most dps i can possibly get in 10 min?
(cast yamas inferno 4 a few times, regen, repeat, or just twist hates glacial gift 2 for 10 mins straight?)

Computer back up with fresh install getting everything functioning, then finishing uc2 on mage so I can a fair comparision of mana neck +nukes vs monk with uc2 and strike augs, including rogue as well :), will be parsing zerker vs necro, mage vs mnk, can also parse shaman vs druid (Yes the whole point of this wasn't saying that mnks or rogues are too op the point was saying that nukes do not scale to tier far as base damage, that includes all casters and hybrids.) Lots of anguish farm tommorrow before I test in tier 8 (or can test on dummy whatever everyone suggest.) And to dimuwar, fyi casters really have had any changes or real improvement for years and people have been complaining about the lack of scaling to tier, so asking hate to look into something that been in issue for years versus new content, sorry but some of us would like to see old problems addressed before new headaches come ^-^.

Since this is about being fair, it really should take 3 mana VIII necks to make a single mana IX neck. ;)

Cost in Plat to make a pair of Ninja XIs -- 44 million raw plat.

Lets assign essence costs as such: (Qvic 200 / CT 250 / Dminor 300 / Dmajor 250 / Gminor 350 / Gmajor 600 / Abyss 500 / Anguish 200 / LP 750 / ToV 1.5m / OC 2.5m)

Cost in Ess to make a pair of Ninja XIs - 29.6 million raw plat

Assign SLS current market value of 400k (/giggle, but its true)

48 SLS @ 400k = 19.2 million raw plat.

COST OF TWO NS XI total = 92.8 million plat.

Same values for Mana Neck :

Cost in raw plat for a Mana Neck XI - 9.5 million raw plat.

Cost in Ess for a Mana Neck XI - 31.6 million raw plat

Cost in SLS for a Mana Neck XI - 8.8 million raw plat (22 sls's)

COST OF A MANA NECK XI total = 49.9 million plat.

Thanks to Darpey's wiki for saving me a ton of time doing redundant math.

Caster dps is troubling because of the nature of the caster in everquest, theyre just too slow and too needy as far as attention goes which is usually the game breaking decision compared to fire and forget dps like monk/rog. like krinkle said, their numbers aren't whats wrong and frankly to be honest...i have no idea what you could do to make me say "im gunna bench my monk/rog for a wizard!. when im boxing 12 toons the last thing i have time to do is actively micro manage 1 dps box. With that said i do have a fully geared wiz with 7.0 and uc, just haven't grouped him up once yet..hes more of a barbie doll that i like to gear out for GIGGLES at this point. there's nothing wrong with that right? :)

since this is KINDA on the same topic i was thinking about this yesterday and don't really want to make a new thread. What do you guys think would be the best fit for a second UW after tank? im thinking rogue would poop all over everyone with an equal uw to compare with? also lack of melee proc  (not click) augments on hive queen for melee UWs makes me sad :(

Here lies one significant problem, most times a caster is lucky to land 1 spell per mob, let alone 2, and once the rest of the pack has been ae'd down a bit already, they may not land another spell on anything until the next pull.  The exception is bosses, even then though, their DPS feel very lacking.

My group runs a mage in it, really only because I played a mage on live, otherwise, we'd have another monk or zerk or something in it's place.  My play times suck with a 3yr old so I don't know I'll get much of a chance to parse it out, but will certainly try.

I also agree with the lets not nerf characters, yes a mana neck may be cheaper then an equal strike aug, however, the return is not the same.  Maybe the neck should have a percentage spell boost scaling up similar to the dps boost gained by strike augs, then if so inclined, you can raise the price to be equivalent.

nail, head, etc.

I do actually have a wizard, he is T9, I have a mage and ench, both T9 as well. They are all 3 benched. I wont be using them. I have the ench for buffs, the mage for single coth in T7 and the wizard because I always thought it would be cool to have a wizard.

heres the problem with casters, beyond the 1 spell per mob (if youre lucky). I do not want to manage different toons on different screens. I do not want to switch from my tank to my wizard to cast spells. If we could have macro's to auto cast spells that would solve a little of that problem, but that's another story.

I have the mage to single coth, but at least her pet gives off some DPS. Now the problem with the mana neck, I think hers is X, maybe XI, is that she has to cast spells in order for the buff to be cast on the pet, again, manage one toon to get a buff on the pet so that the pet does the extra dps, no thanks. If the mana neck had a 1 time buff that lasted 100 hours then yeah she would be more viable as a constant dps machine.

strikes vs neck.
the strike augs, imo, are what separates the "do you want to be end game" from "I just want to have fun" here, kinda like T5 lol. No hate towards either crowd, but strike augs cost a LOT of time and effort to make. Mana neck, not so much. Therefore, the rewards of the strike aug should be 2x or 3x what the neck is.

for my game play, melee, ie monks, zerkers, rogues is the way to go. I just don't feel like switching screens to cast spells, I just don't. I like to point and shoot and stay on my main screen to chat, bs, and manage my pulls.

frankly this entire thing, born in ooc is a little on the tard side to me. casters are fine, melee is fine. we do not need Hate wasting his time further balancing classes, which WILL butthurt far more players than it will make happy in the end.

What we need is Hate focused on game creation. Not things like this. Nothing is broken here.

If you want to play casters, trust me, the numbers are going to show that they are balanced. have fun with the screen changing, spell casting, whatever. If you want your casters to put out more DPS then invest the time needed into those toons to make them do so, ie UC's, rings, etc. Everyone has their own way to play, style, what they want to do on a pull, etc. I think a lot of people choose to go sword and board vs spell slinging, but I may be wrong.

again, my opinion, but I think this is a time drain on our development time and completely not needed.

Rent is out $$ lol

This right here tells me you're either trolling, dyslexic, or a fucking retard.


tl;dr Here it is, broken down as simply as it can be... instead of complaining about something needing to be fixed, SHOW WHY it needs to be fixed.  Don't pull arbitrary numbers out of your ass and then attempt to make a comparison by cherry picking situational data and unilaterally applying it as fact while dismissing other factors that may play into it.

Krinkle, it's not like I can't parse them myself and then do crushing nerfing. That's not my "thing" and a dick move. What I MIGHT adjust is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE gaps (i.e. monk is 200% higher than ALL classes in DPS in ALL tiers, that's CLEARLY a huge gap) Realistically, I'm just looking for extreme gaps or common failings.

---

Dimur, nailed it bud. :-)
The purpose of the thread is to save me several days of manually parsing this myself.

---

Rent, that's cool. Play what YOU WANT TO PLAY. If you want to cheese and min/max, what-the-@#%@-ever. That is YOUR call and I'm not trying to demand or force you to play certain things/combos/classes/etc.



-Hate

As per Warbash's post (the only one so far that's contributed any objective information):

1st run self buffs only on ranger (secrests secret buff) and Crab Fu on mnk.
Scaled
Rog       474467
mnk      439146
rng        391314
bst        355943
bst pet   121188
Brd        348241

Everything looks fine from a melee perspective. Hate - I assume you're just using monk as a hypothetical example. Monk certainly isn't OP as far as I can tell... rogue does *slightly* more damage, but also not OP.

Melee seems balanced to me - Bard is the lowest, but he adds utility benefit (that's not OP)

I can't see how any melee alterations would be a good thing. They don't need to be made better, they certainly don't need a nerf bat.

Yeah, just a running joke from forever. I picked on monks to some degree, paladins to a much larger degree (paladin scum!), and hated hardcore on warriors. (yet that didn't stop me from creating some crazy things for all three of them).


-Hate

When parsing rogues do ppl use Tes.whip or dual daggers?

Either or both. Just make sure you specify which one(s) you tested with.


-Hate

Was just voicing my concerns, ive got t9 uc2 int casters but dont understand how to parse them, should I do the most dps i can possibly do or only use the top level highest dmg spell? I dont know how they would be used with regular clearing of trash so im confused on how to parse them.

Generally the best way to parse is to maximize what you can do for damage output, it's easy for melee parses because all you have to do is hit autoattack and click whatever abilities or items you can to generate dps...with a caster you have to figure out what the best way of doing dmg is.  Just twisting the same spell over and over might be a realistic way to do it for some, but isn't for classes that have a recourse effect from casting one spell that boosts another spell...like casting a certain heal to get a dmg bonus on cold based DD spells or whatever.  The best parses are going to be ones that can really show a toon's potential, even if the situation doesn't seem realistic you'd just cite that as a qualifier when posting the dps you get.

Rogue is I believe the only ninjastrike class that can use a  Tswhip and still benefit from ingenuity, and that advantage as I recall is a pretty big one (15% bigger crits IIRC). I seem to recall from the last parses I did (granted, 4 or 5 months ago) that rogues were slightly better for me DPS wise than monks.

Ranger (http://ezserverwiki.com/Ranger) and Bard (http://ezserverwiki.com/Bard) also are Ninjastrike (http://ezserverwiki.com/Strike_Augments#Ninjastrike) capable and can use Tserrina's Whip (http://ezserverwiki.com/Tserrina%27s_Whip)

Any of the three NS classes that can use would gain 9% DPS with NSX1's... more percentage for NS9's or 10's (650k strike damage vs. 712k strike damage)

Well damn, now I'm all curious...

Ran bard on QRG Practice Dummy with and without TWhip (NOT using any additional strike aug on the slot 8... just to see the effect of the TWhip proc... that and I don't have a NS8)

T9 Bard NSXI using Saw Bladed Scimitar Primary (NSXI) and Tserrina's Whip Secondary (NSXI) - UC2
WITH Tserrina's Whip - 1.33m
WITHOUT Tserrina's Whip (Desert Shank Instead) - 1.41m


lol - wasn't expecting that. I guess it's the white damage difference:
T Whip - 3500 damage
Desert Shank - 5300

Although you can still put a NS8 on the TWhip which I didn't do...

Bad results... not sure why - see next post

Take 2...
T9 UC2 Bard (http://ezserverwiki.com/Bard) - only buffed with "Tserrina's Vampiric Nature Recourse" when using Tserrina's Whip (http://ezserverwiki.com/Tserrina%27s_Whip)

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11, NS8
1.52m (200 seconds)

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11
1.35m (200 seconds)

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Desert Shank NS11
1.38m (200 seconds)

so... not sure what I did wrong the first time, but these results were more controlled... so it IS worth using Tserrina's Whip after all

(added zerker 2hs version)

All T9 armor, UC3, SoA45(WAR 55), Epic9.0, Level 77
WAR UW11(2hs), RoA1000, T9 Bow, Earring rank50
PAL UW11(2hs), RoA625, T8 Bow,
BER UW11(1hs + T9 shield), RoA550, Jeweler's candlelight(T7 special range)
ROG UW11(1hp + Twhip Ninja11+8), RoA621, T8 Bow, Earring rank50
MNK UW11(HtoH + T9 fist Ninja11), RoA570, Jeweler's candlelight(T7 special range)
RNG UW11(1hs + Twhip Ninja11+8), RoA318, T9 Bow

Buffs / Ancient: Vampiric Thunder, Ancient: Melee Haste, Howl of the Huntmaster2
Self buffs / Over Raided Zerker Haste(BER), Crab Fu(MNK), Secrets2(RNG)
Combat Abilities (on group buff) / Cry Havoc(BER), Fists of Wu(MNK)
Epic Click Effect / BER 9.0
Combat Skill / Backstab(ROG), Flying Kick(MNK)
UW Aug / Hatestomp4(WAR)
Pet buffs (leave pet)
IG(WAR), Mistress(PAL, ROG, MNK, RNG), Angryface(BER)


FG Dummy 600sec (MT WAR, others attack from behind)
WAR 6742698 (6740k) / T8T9 Earring 4482203 (4480k)
PAL 2823002 (2820k)
BER 1hs 3973093 (3970k) - without Epic 3220818 (3220k) = AE DPS 752275 (752k)
BER 2hs 5353561 (5350k) - without Epic 4578074 (4570k) = AE DPS 775487 (775k)
ROG 6645724 (6640k) / T8T9 Earring 6558101 (6550k)
MNK 5345419 (5340k)
RNG 3994369 (3990k)

QRG Dummy 600sec (MT WAR, others attack from behind)
WAR 12744384 (12700k) / T8T9 Earring 6993936 (6990k)
PAL 3926538 (3920k)
BER 1hs 5667802 (5660k) - without Epic 5064523 (5060k) = AE DPS 603279 (603k)
BER 2hs 8686464 (8680k) - without Epic 7919974 (7910k) = AE DPS 766490 (766k)
ROG 10743605 (10740k) / T8T9 Earring 10184613 (10180k)
MNK 6305716 (6300k)
RNG 5000043 (5000k)

I think +- 100 or 200k

Rymo, from Japan (not good at english)

Awesome parses and yet 0 have been the main classes that were mentioned needing improvement. 0 mage parses 0 wizard 0 enc 0 necro 0 shm 0 druid. The whole arguement was that DD based spells were not progressing in damage to the relative tier that they drop in, but I will have it done as soon as I can get my mage a ucv2 finished and get this game parse program working.

(quote dimu)
This right here tells me you're either trolling, dyslexic, or a fucking retard.

I am number dyslexic thanks but I still manage just fine.

 Here it is, broken down as simply as it can be... instead of complaining about something needing to be fixed, SHOW WHY it needs to be fixed.  Don't pull arbitrary numbers out of your ass and then attempt to make a comparison by cherry picking situational data and unilaterally applying it as fact while dismissing other factors that may play into it.
[/quote]
I am not pulling numbers out of my ass thank very much, I am going by a standard idea of procs vs nukes which has been used many times in the past, for instance NS10 does a base damage of 275k, stand nukes in tier 8 (relative tier zone area) do 100-160k, how is that a even balance in nuke damage or even within the same ball park, that is my arguement sir and not to mention the fact that spells do require time to cast as many have said, there a delay cast re cast time and several contribution factors involved versus strike augs procing in any given combat round, so the arguement is why are DD's not scaled to relative strike aug levels per tier, for instance a INSANITY rank 5 tier 8 spell is 100k nuke were is NS 10 is 275k, yes I understand it cost money it takes time to farm, but to be fair it takes time to UC a caster, it takes time to farm and earn the spell (you can't craft tier 8 9 spells) there also the fact that you don't just mem it and the caster procs it as a buff its a spell you have to command the box to cast, even if it had a higher delay recast time it would make the scaling more relative the time and investment spent getting that class to to its respective tier. For instance tier 7 shaman highest nuke is 45k? where as druids have a 75k epic clicky? There several spells damage base that are completely off in their values and that what I  was explaining to hate, why Do I feel they need to be increased because it enables caster when they do nuke to nuke not just do .001 of damage to a boss where your NS wielders are doing 1-5% to same tier bosses same tier strike augs. Their is no nuke its just a joke.
Best way to compare nukes is to compare them to strike augs its Direct damage relative to tier ie ns fs is, for instance a priest nuke should be on par with an IS of resepective tier, a caster should have nukes respective to a NS. Does that mean every class should have the same nuke spell damage no, should a mage have the same nuke as a wizard not even close, best values i could say is respective mage nuke tier 8 should be theoritically 250k, wizard 325k, enchanter 200k, once again spells have a delay recast, proc strike augs do not, this wouldnt make caster a cheap way to dps without spending plat or time, once again still need uc's to make the damage noteworthy, you still want mana necks to keep there mana sustained (this is why I suggested increased mana cost and higher cast time delay). Its a very effective damage comparision to tier ratio. IE clerics shm druid nuke spells should be tuned to the same relevence as IS10 for tier 8 or is9 for tier 7 etc etc. This way people that want to do more then just command toons to auto attack and want to use the great spells and designs that were thought out in the game get more reward for using the time and effort placed into setting up our boxes to do more then just cast scale, or kraken, or proc mana neck, our casters actually offer effective relative damage to tier.

Have had a couple requests in-game for a GamParse guide...

GamParse guide HERE (http://www.ezserverwiki.com/Parse) - I made it quick, will make it better soon

This is cool to parse all the toons. All i want to know is what is the intent? I get a simple balance of DPS on casters if it is DRASTICALLY far off, but are we really trying to make DPS toons out of Non-DPS types of characters? I'd like to see more functionality out of some toons, like a shaman mass slow to help keep tanks alive, or a more effective cleric healer etc..etc... I'd rather people provide more insight in making more classes more functional and how.  What I am asking is that I would hope that class functionality and it's integrity is maintained and aimed to make better. Just my 2cents.

-Harthek

Not quite. If the DPS casters NEED work, then the DPS caster (assuming the numbers prove as much) may see a bump. If we find out class X is 200% higher in literally all cases, I will look at why, how, and what needs to be done.


-Hate

Glad to see Rymo a.k.a "How-the-Hell-does-he-do-that" finally post on forums =)

Rymo's DPS post = beat the game with 6 toons.

-Harthek

It's not hard, been saying it for ever.. Invest into your toons period. If you take Poo to the table, expect Poo in return.



My #s are similar to Rymo's death squad of terror. I do not have a rogue so that really excited me when I seen the numbers off the 2nd parse


But the set up is far from cheap period!

Alternate suggestion, just dawned on me maybe this is what you were possibly thinking hate, why not a stackable amplify damage spell for enc mage nec wiz respectively (of course 100%+ higher rate for wizards obviously just like cleric does for amplify healing) Just an alternate solution that would take less work then having to redo dd values? (Tier 8 range click with damage bonus higher then standard much like dru shm has)

The main issue with casters is that they're not at par with melee in "real-world" (non-practice dummy) situations... (as per previous posts). By the time you engage mobs, they can get one or two spells off, when melee have been auto-whacking numerous times.

What about more AoE damage from pure casters? That way even if you only get one or two spells off during a fight, at least you hit 9 mobs while doing it.

Just a thought. I could be wrong, again, I don't play casters.

Yep....but no NS class gains as much from the whip as the rogue because of ingenuity AA.

No offense intended to anyone in this thread, but I'm seeing TONS of suggested fixes and almost no data to act upon.


-Hate

Zerker, mnk get this too, may be why ranger and bard are so much lower?

Class: Monk
Level: 78
Gear: Full T9, UC2, ROA: 397
Weapons: Shadowed Man's Fist x2
Augs: Epic 9.0 + NSXI x2
Buffs: None

Time: 1267
Total Damage: 2,345,076,189
DPS: 1,850,889
Hits: 2264
Max Hit: 4,485,000
Avg Hit: 1,035,811

Class: Wizard
Level: 77
Gear: Full T8, UC2, RoA: 249
Buffs: None
ManaNeck: Not Used
Spells Used: /twist Hateborne's Glacial Gift + Yamakagi's Fiery passion Inferno II

Time: 944
Total Damage: 378,063,675
DPS: 400,491
Hits: 142
Max Hit: 5,029,200
Avg Hit: 2,662,420

Class: Mage
Level: 77
Gear: Full T8, UC2, RoA: none
Buffs: None
Mananeck: XI
Spells used: Shylo's Bolt of Doom II
Pet Used: Epic 9.0, Ornate Swords, no buffs

Time: 631
Total Damage: 573,584,757
DPS: 909,009
Hits: 1,397
Max Hit: 2,400,000
Avg Hit: 410,583

First time using a parse, so maybe I messed up, idk /shrug

I think part of the issue that i can confirm is that ....

casters with a cast time and cool-down can not do dps in fights that are insta kill fests...

they may parse on a practice dummy ok..or better at least... BUT in real world they are absolute junk because of this..


So parse all you want but if they can not insta Burst DPS then they are next to useless..

TL/DR

Caster damage may or may not be broken but how to apply the dps is the major busted parts

I'm curious as to where all these people that seem to have such an issue with the caster to melee disparity are?  Where are all these parses that these people should be compiling, the empirical data along with a valid solution to address this atrocity?  I don't doubt that casters could be in need of some sort of boost, but I don't play enough casters to bother gearing them up over my other characters or caring.  It just seems odd that the most vocal people in asking for a change also happen to be the ones most devoid of anything concrete indicating why it's necessary or giving a realistic route as to how to accomplish it.

Right on the button!


excellent point!


But wait...how can anyone parse...they are horrible dps...know one has a bunch of geared up casters they play laying around...that's the entire point...we don't play them BECAUSE we all know the dps is jacked...


Again..we..do not have them because they are horrid...how can we parse them fairly with the gear being so off from the rest of our groups? you want to see a bunch of uc1 wizzy parse vrs an UW11 uc3 war parse? yes they suck...but that wont tell us anything...


The parsing you want us to do cant be done (other than a few ubers) because WE (theplayers) do not play these classes....


Just look at the Rymo's DPS post...thats pretty much as good as its going to get...

This isn't the data you're looking for (or droids?), but I thought I would share anyway.

These characters are mid-low-tier (but with a good set of Halloween gear), so I have no idea what it looks like in T9. However, they are basically all the same level of progression, and I've removed all buffs apart from Halloween pet ability. I have a druid, shaman and two Paladins as well, but I don't use them for damage so they're left out (their DPS is worthless). I left the pets up with weapons for casters, but for the life of me I can't get GamParse to show the pet damage. Regardless, this gives a good indication of pure caster vs. melee damage.

Basically, before they get mana necklace, casters suffer from severe mana drought almost immediately after a fight begins. Additionally, the available spells just don't hold a candle to melee DPS. Based on this data, I figure casters do anywhere from 0-15% of melee DPS not including pet damage, with or without mana neck.

Since the chilled devil pets aren't procing currently, obviously this could improve for those of us who grabbed CDs during the event.

I've also included results from a separate 10 minute parse for characters that don't have MOF. In this run, I removed the BU and CD effects to see the results. Not surprisingly, the caster damage is the same since the CD proc is not working. However, interestingly, DPS for melee with BU pet is either the same, or in the zerker's case, even lower.

For those who might say MOF skews the results, my caster DPS is still less than 5% of most melee DPS even without MOF effect running.

Needless to say it's obvious the casters are not helping me with DPS right now, but I keep them around for when cloth drops, because, well why not?

Also one day they might be the most powerful classes on EZ ;)

so apparently berserkers do more dps then ranger and come close to monk dps when using a UW 1hs/shield combo? consider my mind blown.

Yea zerker with 1hs and a shield doesnt make sense to me. I would think there 2 hander dps of a uw11 would be crazy on a zerker cause of there aa's.

Now the Rogue under the exact same conditions, UC2 - only difference is using a different primary (from the same tier)

UC2 Rogue Primary: Desert Shank NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11, NS8
2.14m (200 seconds)

UC2 Rogue Primary: Desert Shank NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11
2.02m (200 seconds)

UC2 Rogue Primary: Desert Shank NS11 ~~ Secondary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11
2.05m (200 seconds)

UC3 Warrior Primary: Ultimate Long Sword X (Hatestomp 4) ~~ Secondary: Crystalline Sword of Parrying (Angry Nerds VI)
3.95m (200 seconds)

UC3 Warrior Primary: Ultimate Zweihander X (Hatestomp 4)
5.75m (200 seconds)

UC2 Monk Primary: T9 Hand-to-Hand (Ninjastrike 11) ~~ T9 Hand-to-Hand (Ninjastrike 11) (Airplane clickie buffed)
1.99m (200 seconds)

UC2 Berzerker Primary: T9 2hs (Firestrike 11 x2) (Airplane clickie buffed)
1.63m (200 seconds)

UC2 Paladin Primary: T9 2hs (Firestrike 11 x2)
0.87m (200 seconds)

Keep in mind, though, that the bard was not singing any of the songs that he would be singing to give him AND the group a DPS boost.

---

*Parsing Observations*
DPS Seems to go down over time (has done that in all 6 of these parses), so make SURE that you're comparing the same time to the same time... otherwise you will get inaccurate results.

I only did 200 seconds, because I saw that the fluctuations seemed to normalize - were fluctuating only by .02 million or so... so these results would be +-.05 in accuracy at the given time (200 seconds), however if I had gone the full 10 minutes, I assume the averages would have dropped on all measures.

TLDNR:
T9 Warrior (http://ezserverwiki.com/Warrior): 5.75m (UC3) (UWX) (Hatestomp 4)
T9 Rogue (http://ezserverwiki.com/Rogue): 2.05m (UC2) (NS11x2 NS8)
T9 Monk (http://ezserverwiki.com/Monk): 1.99m (UC2) (NS11x2)
T9 Berserker (http://ezserverwiki.com/Berserker): 1.63m (UC2) (FS11x2)
T9 Bard (http://ezserverwiki.com/Bard): 1.38m (UC2) (NS11x2)
T9 Paladin (http://ezserverwiki.com/Paladin): 0.87m (UC2) (FS11x2)

Conclusion: Melee classes are well balanced (IMO)

add zerker 2hs version.
Original Post (http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=4525.msg58340#msg58340)

FG dummy
BER 1hs 3973093 (3970k) - without Epic 3220818 (3220k) = AE DPS 752275 (752k)
BER 2hs 5353561 (5350k) - without Epic 4578074 (4570k) = AE DPS 775487 (775k)

QRG dummy
BER 1hs 5667802 (5660k) - without Epic 5064523 (5060k) = AE DPS 603279 (603k)
BER 2hs 8686464 (8680k) - without Epic 7919974 (7910k) = AE DPS 766490 (766k)

The thing that is standing out to me is that you all really should only be running warriors for dps... They do the most damage.. have the best durability.. and the best skills...and have the best clickys...


imagine rymos group with war war war war pally zerk......I have not done the math but..all things equal....warriors are the bomb...just imagine all uw11 2handers and then you hit your dps disc...lol...

almost make me want to play again!

Warriors often do the most damage because everyone gears them out first. I don't know anyone who doesn't give their warrior most of the best gear first.

Another thing to consider is that Rymo has EotBA 50 on his warrior (and rogue) and not on other characters.

My parse I have UC3 (and UWX) on warrior and not on others

So the parses are a little misleading in favor of warrior

Parse for 2 groups on dummy for approximately 4 minutes
Class     dps           gear+notes                                                                   spells
Rogue 3035763    tier 8 geared tier 8 dagger+tse ns10x2 uc2
Monk 2783533      tier 8 geared tier 8 fistx2 ns10x2 uc2
Ber    1509031      tier 8 geared tier 8 2hs fs10x1 uc2
Necro 1110406      tier 8 geared Tse's staff mana neck 10 uc2       (death 3 2 incisor,touch2)
mage 857234        tier 8 geared tse's staff mana neck 10 uc2         (shylo's2,malo3
Bard   530750        tier 8 geared tier 8 dps 1hs+parry no strike augs uc1
Enc     453069        tier 8 geared Tse's staff mana neck 10 uc1         (Breathless4,insanity5,talasian)
Druid   343103        tier 8 geared tier 9 1hb   uc1                              (epic 8.0,har4,frogs3)
Pal1       337312        tier 8 geared tier 8 2hs uc1                              (Zealous2)
Pal2      291467        tier 8 geared tier 8 2hs uc1                               (zealous2)
Shaman 260174       tier 8 geared tier 8 1hb  uc1                              (kiss of ant2,baited2)
War        1452741     tier 8 geared tier 9 tank 1hs+uw8 uc2
*note* all characters using mistress pets expect war.
Tried attaching log but said file size to large any suggestions to make this smaller?
Also bard was not using songs at all /twist plugin some reason is not on my mq2 atm trying to fix that, so how is a bard no songs no strike augs out damaging an enchanter with with mananeck 10 casting spells?
Suggestion: My idea as a solution to even out caster damage.
Spell: Focus damage Enc,mag,nec
100% spell damage increase (doesn't affect mana neck)
50% increase mana cost
Spell: Amplify Damage Wiz(only)
300%spell damage increase(doesn't affect mana neck)
50% increase mana cost

I cant agree more.  I constantly say in /ooc to stop bitching about little things cause that's what causes the BIG nerfs and people quitting etc.....this is one of those things that will screw everyone over in the end (just like nerfing the UW did)

Yeah - I just think it's kinda fun to see the parses of various class / tier / item combinations... is very useful

I think the data shows that it does not need to be changed on the melee side. Maybe on the caster side. I'll cry lots of tears if any melee class gets nerfed.

It's just good ol' nerdy fun to have a parsing thread. :)

Sorry, but the UW alignment wasn't a nerf it was beyond broken the way it stood.. (it didn't screw one person over other then hurting someones feelings)

What is pushing people away now is watching all the training wheels and daily trophies for logging in.

Takes 1 day to farm a UCv1
Takes 1 day to farm a UCv2
Can do T5 in <3 days,
Plat is god abundant,
Everyone feels they are fully entitled to see end game no matter what gear they are ie Im flagged there for I should be able to kill any and everything period
Most can farm a UW1-9 faster then they can farm a Hatestomp 1 or 2

Some players are full T9 in less then 1 month from scratch without help inside of game from peers..(with UCv3 spotting team)




apologies to OP for derail just my pennies

Lol what you smoking, took me weeks to get through T5 and how are people get UC1 in one day?

lmao well then i'll just give you my group for the weekend

This is flat out wrong on all levels and coming from a guy who has been in the end game a little too long if you ask me. This server has a problem with end game guys complaining non stop, not newbies complaining. This is a perfect example of it - sorry to say. This is all blatantly untrue ask anyone who isn't T9.

Try bringing up a new batch of characters truly from scratch before you go on a rant like this Fugi.

Don't feed the Troll, his numbers  are taken to the extreme to point at a point... Things are better, and in some cases that may translate to easier...  It's just too easy to point at the "old timers" and joke about them walking uphill both ways in the snow etc.  For better or worse its not the same server at "lower tiers" that it was back when Fugi etc ran them.  They had it tougher in some cases and easier in others (T5 still sucks, probably always will, and should).

If you have put in more time great.  But the addition of more content is a change also, one that was welcomed.  If people are willing to point out a dps discrepancy between classes and get help with parsing to prove it (for example) and that leads to a change then great.  We the next wave, that have not quit yet, thank you for EZ evolution.
Back on topic please :)

True.

However, I'm getting really tired of hearing end game folk constantly complain about newbies and QQ. I'm sure I'm not the only one. These guys don't realize the real QQ is coming from them, and everyone who isn't T9 knows it. Maybe this server needs some new blood and a few less cranky old geezers.

"It's easier for you to get UCv1 omfg I'm quitting!"

Newsflash, anyone who is already T9 isn't quitting... they obviously enjoy the server enough to get to T9, and the devs do a great job of adding new content. We should be more worried about not gaining new players as they become disgruntled by all the end game whining.

Lets see how I can put this in another way,

What Fugi is saying is basically true, to a point.

As I am not quite as old as him in terms of server age I can tell you that quests such as UC1 are far, far easier now than they were just a year ago. With the changes such as increased drop rates we saw things getting easier, then ToFS was added, again we saw things getting easier, now though you have daily missions that makes it possible to never even visit the zone we did our UC1's in.

UC1 used to be Ldon up to 25's then HOH till your eyes bleed getting your V2's. I still remember the feeling of how cool it was to be able to "pull the room" in HoH, however I mostly went mob to mob. If you go do Ldon and HoH for the day you will see that the progression rate is much, much slower than going to do the daily missions.

Now, granted for your very first UC1's you wont be able to use ToFS or Daily missions, however I am sure by the time you get a few done you will be able to use some of these. And now your back flagging is simple. Whereas, you used to have to go back flag with the same method you got your first one with, Ldon and HoH.

So yes, in a lot of regards the game has been made easier for progression.

The problem with being new, and I used to have this problem bad is you see all the treats at the end of the game and want them, even just a small taste of them. There are a great number of us "older" players that give away, or sell for a very small "tip" the end game armor/gear. /auction WTS t8 monk arms for 200k! or even T9 weapons/9.0 books which are practically given away at this point due to the high volume of rot.

as far as this thread is concerned, people want casters to do more. More damage, more defense, more, more.

Trust me when I tell you that T9, end game is very boring. There is nothing to do at all except back flag more toons you wont play, farm essences for UW's, work on your Ring of the Ages, xp mask or Earring of the Ages quests. Boring, Boring and more Boring.

And, the people that have quit, have quit for one of two reasons, one, they just simply are not interested in boring any longer or two, they really do feel the server has gotten so easy to progress that they are pissed. They are mad that they had to walk uphill in the snow while others now walk on flat land to get to the same place they are.

It takes us "old timers" less than 2 weeks to get a character from 0-78, including the goods. That just was not possible a year ago. And, sometimes we even select people to "help" along, by help I mean, do it for them. The only requirements usually are all the essences/cash/GSoA/aa crystals that drop along the way. From my experience, and knowing the top level people that I know, we tend to pick people that are willing to work for it and are less vocal.

I have tried my best to steer clear of this thread because I knew this was going to turn into a mudslinging party. It was born of mud in ooc and it is mud here now.

I assure you that class balancing is a long, butthurt procedure that is a waste of our development time. Everyone will feel the effects of "balancing". Not all classes are equal, and imho a mage should not do the damage a monk does. I have both classes, I use them for completely different things and the mage is not on my bench for her amazing DPS. And when were enchanters ever known for their damage ability? The only class that lays claim to spell casting damage is really only the wizard. Hate, our lead developer played a wizard, played 3 as a matter of fact. I think he pretty much knows the class and what they should and should not be doing in the game.

glaring game mechanic problems are something we should be bringing to Hate's plate, new content ideas, new quest ideas, not this stuff.

imagine if everyone involved in this thread put this much passion into writing a quest, front to end and presented it to Hate and Love. Or, explored our world for a new T10, T11, mini zones and presented a concept idea for their findings to our developers. imagine where we could be right now instead of slinging mud and turning into yet another new vs old thread fight :(

just some words, from what some people consider an "old timer", yet I am not that old and not that timer :)

I don't know that I can agree with any of these statements, seems like a pretty serious hyperbole.

However, the most fun moments I have had on EZ Server were when I sucked the most relative to the content.

* Breaking into potimea and having epic 20 minute boss fights
* T5 in general (all the months of it)
* Finally getting my hohonora flag and getting stomped into the ground by pulling more than 1 mob
* Finally being able to kill Kronos (back when BP was the flag, and there was only ONE real Kronos)
etc...

There's a lot to be said for enjoying the slow long ride - and in my mind that's one thing that sets EZ (ironically from the sound of the name) apart from other games... is that it's slow and hard (TWSS). Sounds like a bad thing, but the "grind" is a good thing in my mind, when it's done right.

Also, R.I.P. parsing thread :/

Beautifully put, Rent.

And for the record, the most fun to be had on this server is grabbing some random person and just running them through content. Its more fun to get new shiny things for other people than to even get them for yourself.

The real beauty of EZ, from the earlier days (which i was a part of) until now is that every single bit of content offered gives a scenario in which a stronger player has every incentive in the world to help a weaker one:

Grinding HOH for tokens? bring someone along for pages and/or v2 charms! Need gmajors n' minors? Find someone in ooc who needs armor and weapons and make it feel like a xmas pinata! Need abyss essences for your UW? Prepare to be the most popular dude on the server! Etc. Etc.

The bottom line is this server offers unlimited resources and zero reason to deprive others of acquiring things. Its what truly brings us back for more, and brings out the best in our community. Take p99, on the other hand. The biggest issue is limited resources and depriving others is the only real way to better yourself. Which is why on there you find yourself surrounded by angry virgins with batphones and rotations and an unquenchable desire to prove once and for all why instanced raiding became the welcomed and accepted norm the second the concept was conceived. Scarcity of resources brings out a survival of the angriest, which just isnt much fun.

On EZ its all warm fuzzies and brotherhood. And while we make fun of each other in /ooc, I've never been part of a more tight knit community who go out of their way to not just help out buddies, but anyone and everyone in need. I am proud to call this place home. :)

c'mon guys, we can get this even futher off topic if we just try!

I get no warm and fuzzy feelings in ooc............LOL

Last attempt:

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Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.
Keep this thread to posts related to the subject.

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Thanks.

-Hate

Yeah ooc is a cesspool of 15 year old /q jokes and complaining about newbie questions. Nothing warm and fuzzy about it, unfortunately. The only thing warm and fuzzy about the server is the devs, the content and the occasional friends you make.

And if I'm hearing correctly, T9s are saying they can get chars to lvl 78 in a matter of weeks.

Try doing it again without your T9 support crew. Or any support crew. The game is absolutely not easy if you haven't already beat it. As for bringing up other folks, I think that defeats the purpose, and isn't a reason to claim the server is easy. Those who do it without help are probably having more fun anyway.

Regardless, I've never had a T9 volunteer to bring my entire crew up from qvic to T9 and to spends weeks doing it... if that's actually happening this server has nicer folks than I thought.

I was here when LDON charms were the only way to get a UC too. It's much much easier now. That said, the server has evolved. The gear has changed - theres a lot more of it. Let's not whine about newbies getting x item easier anymore because the fact is, getting to T9 truly from scratch as a new player is not easy - it's incredibly *!^@(#=@! hard.

This is my last non-parse post. Apologies to you Hate for going off topic.

Hate,

I will see if I can get online this evening and parse out my crew.. will pm the results. I suspect the dummy has been fixed so it wont be shot and killed in 1 round?

Would be nice if we had like a swarm dummy with like 10 targets... I know my enchanter is mostly support but I do fire off gravity flux a lot.

HB needs to see a lot of Cloth DPS too, all varieties

Insanity and breathless are higher damage faster cast nuke versus gravity flux :) just as a side note and tip.

Had a little play with lemonpie

Passive dps ie pet attack and go have a smoke pet got 2 mill dps

with chain casting T Victory i got DPS to 2.6 mill

Lemon has mana neck 9 and UW Zweigerthingie 10 in bag with a crystal assalt blade

Parse Summary

DPS shown in millions

Warbash (UC1, Strike 9 x1)
Rogue 0.47
Monk 0.44
Ranger 0.39
Beastlord 0.36 (Pet: 0.12) (TOTAL: 0.48)
Bard: 0.35

Rymo (UW11, UC3)
War 6.74 (EoBA 50)
Pal 2.82
Ber 5.35
Rog 6.65 (EoBA 50)
Monk 5.35
Ranger 3.99

Rent (UC2, max strike/neck)
Wiz: 0.40
Mage: 0.91

Warrior5
War: 0.48 (Anger 5x3, 6x1 ~ UC1 MoF)
Monk: 0.45 (NS5x2 ~ S50 ~ MoF)
Monk: 0.17 (NS5x2 ~ MoF)
Ranger: 0.16 (MoF)
Berserker: 0.09 (MoF)
Bard: 0.02 (BU)
Berserker: 0.011 (BU)
Enchanter: 0.004 (CD)
Wizard:  0.004 (CD)
Cleric: 0.0009 (IG)

Darpey (UC2, max strike)
War: 5.75 (UW10, UC3, HS4)
Rogue: 2.14
Monk: 1.99
Berserker: 1.63
Bard: 1.52
Paladin: 0.87

Aythena
Rogue: 3.04 (NS10x2, UC2)
Monk: 2.78 (NS10x2, UC2)
Berserker: 1.51 (FS10x1, UC2)
Necromancer: 1.11 (Death 3)
Mage: 0.86 (Mana Neck 10, UC2)
Bard: 0.53 (UC1)
Enchanter: 0.45 (Mana Neck 10, UC1)
Druid: 0.34 (UC1)
Paladin: 0.34 (UC1)
Paladin: 0.29 (UC1)
Shaman: 0.26 (UC1)
Warrior: 1.45 (UW8, UC2)

If you like your DPS, you can keep your DPS.

This is more of a question than a solution/patch/fix for caster dps.  How hard is it to frontload the caster dd's like the strike aug dmg is currently?  By this I mean have a 0.0 casting time spell with the same spell lockout time as the max melee strike speed.  At this point the /twist 1 option in your /bct attack button would at least give an even chance for the casters to land a hit along with the melee that all open up on the pull once your tank has it in position.

I only ask because it seems to me (and I could easy be wrong) that mechanic's wise the casters will stay benched for everything but boss fights and at that point there is no point in having them for anything other than buff bots.  If that's acceptable then fine, we will adjust.  If not and you are looking at balancing (ish) the USABLE dps of dps classes then maybe the cast timing calc in the spells themselves is worth looking at.  Pets do dps, and if that dps makes up the disparity great, its up to the players to decide if that dps is worth the hassle of using or not.

you could UNfix (mostly) the pets so they do dps again...that would fix all but the wizzy dps... and then double the cost of the mana neck to bring it more in line with strike aug's

Give the wizzys an AE rain spell so they dont have to cast ever 4 seconds ...


casters fixed

Before I start, yes, pareses are still sparse for casting classes, I'd wager the reasons are already listed, they aren't often played and DPS on a target that doesn't die won't accurate reflect the reason they aren't used (i.e. at most getting 1 cast off on a pull).

Some thoughts off the top of my head:

• Give DPS caster classes more AE spells (in some cases any AE spells).  They would need to be near instant cast to be of value
• Increase DPS caster spells by x%
• Make all DoTs AE, increase damage by y%
• Add DoT and DD damage increase to the mana neck to make scaling the damage appropriate for the tier, if needed, increase the cost per rank to be reflective of the increase
• Perhaps create spells only attainable by combines similar to defensive boon which would cost an essence plus something to create, they'd of course need to be significant damage to be worth spending an essence and plat or whatever on

The fact is, if you want to see caster classes played, their damage will need to exceed the equivalent melee class for the tier to reflect the fact that they require additional attention to play.  Unless they are more DPS, people will continue to play hit attack and forget it classes.

This would cause a problem as people wouldn't want to see a new DPS surge for cloth wearers because people don't want to regear new characters.

Sorry going to call this as I see it.

For casters to be viable you need near instant spells and you don't need to have to micro manage them.  that is what makes strike aug classes awesome.  You would have a hard time convincing anyone that a caster should get anything that comes close to a strike aug class on dps w/o having to spend an equivalent amount of plat/esse/sls/etc on a spell that would come close to a strike aug.  Now if a spell were made that would cost 2ct,2dminor,2gminor,2gminor,2gmajor,2abyss,2anguish,2abyss,2lp,2tov,2oldcommons/22 sls/20 million plat on vendor ores...then by all means make some insta cast/proc caster spells with a very minor delay (to keep it equivalent to a melee proc).....also need to keep into account how twincast would affect this so that the dps would stay balanced between the two melee/caster

Pages and pages and pages of suggestions, just an inkling of data. YES, I understand casters are undervalued and underplayed.


-Hate

Practice Dummy on 11/24/2014 in 286sec

Total
 --- DMG: 255256311 (100%) @ 892505 dps (892505 sdps)

Baybe
 --- DMG: 255256311 (100%) @ 892505 dps (892505 sdps)

77 wiz. Chain casting Hate's gift 2. UC2 - epic 9.0 - Tsa staff- Tsa robe - CC 3

Zerker - in T8 gear - epic 9.0 - Freeport slasher, 2 FSX augs, UC2, no buffs.

Practice Dummy on 11/24/2014 in 123sec

Total
 --- DMG: 250159669 (100%) @ 2033818 dps (2033818 sdps)
 --- DMG to PC: 72 @1dps

Berzmode
 --- DMG: 250159669 (100%) @ 2033818 dps (2033818 sdps)
 --- DMG to PC: 72 @1dps

I would almost say that wizards need their cast time cut in half for hatebornes glacial gift line. Yama w/e is too mana intensive to use. The rain spell gets resisted way too much.

Resits can be adjusted....

Hate ...I will add some parse..

Casters do not need to be = to melee

Casters do not require Micro managing..i keep hearing this...

you can add /cast to your casters bccmd channel and attach it to the /attack hotkey you allready use..if its not on cooldown they will cast ...what  is to micromanage? you can even have /cast 1 /cast 2 then if (1) is on cooldown the (2) will cast.... its a no brainer people....and /stick can be modified so they keep a reasonable distance back..i chose 40.. seems to work..

Insta cast spells that do damage similar to melee dps is a horrible idea...to cheap.. wont work..you will have murder squads of wizards running around.

So enough of what is not going to work...

create caster augs.. leave everything else the same... just like melee augs but for ranged DPS.. they proc off whatever spell is being cast...obviously not as much damage as a ninja strike XI but something like icestrike...this would also let the hybrids and healers do something....

simple...fix... IMHO

I will follow up with full parse of all my caster toons when I get home...t9ish toons with UC2 mage/chanter/wizzy

I agree that you don't need to have insta cast, casters. I do however think the casting time needs to be played with to see what a happy medium is. You don't have to micro manage casters at all. However if you don't have casters on par with melee toons, if they under their dps, no one will use them. You need to be comparable with them to make them viable.

I disagree... we have 1 class that is the best dps (call it whatever you want) and we don't see groups with only 5 (best dps) toons and a healer running around.

Most Casters have some other benefit other than dps....if you want address the other uses some classes have or don't have that's another thread.

if my mage can nuke/pet in the same ballpark as monk and COH AND throw out a nasty reactive proc...he will earn a spot.

My t8 wiz(cheesewhiz) epic 9.0, neck xi, uc2. Does around 1.2m dps. Using hatebornes glacial 3 chilled devil pet, and whizzy familiar. Can't get game parse to run, no instructions.

I like the dps aug idea somewhat, but the mana neck proc was kinda doing what balidet was suggesting allready. Not sure of mana necks cost but should be close to NS with similar dmg.  Bonus to squishies was always high utility or high damage. This isn't live but no reason wizzys shouldn't be similar to make them useful. I like my wiz and always keep him in my second group just because but would be nice if he could at least keep up with dmg. Especially when pulling a large amount of mobs where now he's lucky to even get on the scoreboard.

ezserverwiki.com/Parse (http://ezserverwiki.com/Parse)

^ I linked to this earlier in the thread - GamParse guide

77 Wiz w/mananeck casting Yamakagi IV  - 2, 001,426

77 Nec twisting Insinuations III, Kiss of Corath III and Death III - 252,163

77 Mage twisting Malos II, Shylo II and Taelosian Victory  -  144,517
 (9.0 pet)  - 70,926

77 Enc twisting Blast, Insanity V, Breathless IV - 87,579
 (9.0 pet)  -  34,176

wizzy 9.0 Vamp Thunder/Pyromancy/KBI3.... Chain cast YFPI3   (ran OOM fast and was using harvest when it popped DPS: 134628

Mage 9.0 Vamp Thunder/KBI3/Mana Neck 8... Chain Cast SBoD3 (pet was full buffed with v2 swords and tess clicky) DPS: 369766

Enchanter 9.0 Vamp Thunder/ KBI3... Chain Cast WoT3/Breatheless4 (pet was full buffed with v2 swords and tess clicky.. this is what I cast with my enchanter deal with it) DPS: 67832

All UC2

To answer the thread as whole:

BEFORE I START THIS RANT, KEEP IN MIND I BOXED SK, BRD, CLR, WIZ, WIZ, WIZ FOR YEARS! OLD FARTS TALKING TO ME LIKE I DON'T UNDERSTAND CASTERS IS...well it's hilarious.

As I've mentioned through the duration of the thread, almost everyone had opinions to throw out on "what the problem really is" or "here is the problem with casters". Almost none of those throwing out 'fixes' gave me data to play off of, so most of it is going to be disregarded.

As for casters and trash, I've been aware of this for a bit. To be fair, you're concerned that the casters get only a single spell off when you are instagibbing NPCs. That's pretty stupid. If you are to the point where you are instagibbing NPCs, giving all casters a 50mil (after scaling) nuke would still be useless at that rate. You are overpowering content with an army of Ninjastrike wielding goons to the point that even some of your NS users aren't getting real damage in because you're wrecking mobs in nearly one round.

As for micro managing toons, what is the difference between autoattack and a key that says "/bcc //keypress 1" (which is both pet attack and your primary nuke)? Yes, you have to press one key every 2 seconds but right now it's mostly attack, send army to auto attack, AFK.

For Mana Neck versus Ninjastrike math, yes I know. I've been fighting that for years and have always been mindful of making sure the time investments are similar. Calm your tits.

To answer Avadar's concern for making non-DPS classes DPS, no. The DPS classes like Wizard, Necro, and Mage are, apparently, under-performing. The hybrids or utility classes (shaman, druid, enchanter) may see slight bumps, but DPS (like all other roles) is a mixed one for them. Their DPS will always be lacking because of the numerous other things that can contribute to the fight.

With those parsing necromancer, magician, and enchanter...are pet values attached? This is a CRUCIAL bit of information as that *IS* part of their DPS.

On the UW "nerf" or (as Fugitive aptly put it¹) "alignment", let's not rehash that again. It's been almost 8 months. The UWs were broke all to hell and it made content dev impossible. At this point, you got stronger weapons for less god mode. They are still the ultimate weapons on the server, just not "lolgodmode" anymore.

Lemonpie, oh really? Neato, I need to experiment a bit heavier with bag but that's interesting to see. :-)

---

With all of that being said, I am locking this thread. I will do a few 10min parses on all casters, then I'll get fancy and doing some variant testing on my wiz (t9 max level with and without UW Staff, with and without Angryface, etc). 

After that, I'll post my results in addition to my thought process on the entire "state" of casters and any potential changes. Realistically, if there are a good many of them, it will end up as an "update" post.


-Hate

Wizard Parse from Expletus

Enchanter Parse from Expletus



-Hate

Current Mana Necklace and all -strike augs cost breakdown.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13GIolnBa7mk8DUUqHdy23JGpeNXm3lyblPVMuj1stJI/edit?usp=sharing


-Hate