Icestrike +Ranged please

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[walk2k]

Currently the Ranger can use Icestrike augs but only on the swords, not on bows/BFG.

Ranger 4.0 (the BFG) has 2 slots for Ninjastrike (good) but the type 4 slot can not be auged with Icestrike, which does not have Ranged slot allowed.

I think this would be a good addition seeing that a ranger can probably do more damage with melee attacks using 4x Icestrike + 2x Ninjastrike, vs only 2x Ninjastrike on the bow, although much more costly of course.

[Strix]

I think this would be a good addition seeing that a ranger can probably do more damage with melee attacks using 4x Icestrike + 2x Ninjastrike, vs only 2x Ninjastrike on the bow, although much more costly of course.

I love the idea of this - but I have a feeling that even adding one Icestike to a bow could make a Ranger hugely over powered.  I say this of course without having parsed the damage of melee versus range.

Does anyone have any data on that?  It does seem that the bow damage should at least be able to match the melee damage. 

Maybe Rangers are just too tricky in terms of the coding to get the numbers right?

Strix

[walk2k]

At one point the 4.0 bow had 3 type 8 slots and some lucky SOBs got to put 3x Ninjastrike on it.  He thought this was overpowered so put the first slot back to type 4 (Ninja only goes in type 8).  People that had 3x Ninja got to keep it, so it couldn't have been that game-breaking.  NinjastrikeV is 6500 dmg base, IceV is only 2000 so I don't think it would be that overpowered.  And anyway you could put 4x Ice on the swords which would obviously be more dmg than just 1.

[Strix]

NinjastrikeV is 6500 dmg base, IceV is only 2000 so I don't think it would be that overpowered.  And anyway you could put 4x Ice on the swords which would obviously be more dmg than just 1.

Doesn't Trueshot double the bows hits and procs?  So you have 2 Ninjas at 6500 dmg giving them a total of 13,000 dmg base.  Factoring Trueshot into that it becomes 26,000 dmg (ignoring crit hits in this).

Melee dmg = 8000 (IS x 4) + 13,000 (NSx 2) = 21,000 dmg.  Are there any other modifiers on melee that may increase this dmg?

I think you're right walk2k - it's probably not game-breaking given the amount of base dmg rogues and wizzies are able to do.  Probably should parse the Ranger to get more data on it to see if the above is right.  Certainly seems that allowing icestikes to be range mounted would be a nice small increase to the Ranger's bow dmg.

Strix

[walk2k]

Trueshot does not increase proc damage, only bow damage (white dmg).

Also bows do not have double-attack.  You get 1 attack per round which with max haste is about 1 per second.

If you were dual-wielding swords + double attack, with 2x Ice and 1x Ninja each you could get 3-4 attacks per round.

Just counting procs, it would work out like:

Bow = 1x Ice (2000) 2x Ninja (6500x2 = 13k) = 15k per round (13k now with no Ice)

Melee = 2x Ice (4000) 1x Ninja (6500) = 10.5k per attack, with possibility of 3-4 attacks per round, up to 42k per round.

Bow (white) damage with TS on is a bit more than sword white damage so it makes up for it a little, but not that much.

My ranger with 4.0, 2x NinjaV and Sorc50 parses out at about 53k DPS.

I believe monks and rogues can easily hit 70k, and wizards 80k+

Adding 1x Ice to the ranger bow would probably make rangers about 60k, which considering they are outside of rampage/aoe range seems like a fair amount.

Put another way, NinjastrikeV hits for 22.5k (26k with UC) times 2 per shot, adding an IceV would only hit for 7k (8k with UC) not a huge increase.

[chunkumss]

You haven't taken into consideration the proc rate (ppm), and the fact that offhand procs less (per swing!) than mainhand. In other words, there are more variables so simply comparing combat rounds is not an accurate measure.

In the end the answer is simple. Parse it.

Want to compare a ranger with swords vs a ranger with bow? Parse it.

Want to see the impact of an ISV aug on archery? Parse using one NSV then using one NSIV and subtract. The difference between the two is exactly 2k damage.

[Strix]

Good point Chunk

My Ranger doesn't have icestrikes yet in his swords (hopefully will have them sometime in the next week). 

Any Rangers out there who have parsed this yet?

If no one responds I'll try to make an effort to do it sometime in the next week

Strix

[Kenshou]

Yea I parsed it not to long ago, and kinda the reason I don't use my bow anymore. Ken has the 4.5's with NS V' x2 and IS V's x 4 parsed is 62k dps no buffs. And the bow with his NS' V's x 2 is only at 41k dps, and before you ask it was not on practice dummy, we all know Ranged numbers are off when hitting rooted mobs. I Always have my shammy in tow, so add another 12k dps to melee, on average Ken is around 74k dps using 1hs

[Strix]

I'm officially retiring my bow!!

Thanks for the info Ken

[walk2k]

I parsed my ranger, on Shadow or T4 Warlord, at about 50-53k dps, that's without spamming the clicky, if I do that it adds 4-5k.  That's with full buffs, including chanter haste, and using Trueshot every time it pops (on a fight like Warlord about 10 mins, you'd have TS up for 4 out of 10 minutes)...

I think if you added IceV to the bow, we'd be looking at around 60k, maybe mid 60, and a bit more if you spam the clicky.  As you proved that's already lower than ranger melee, though to be fair you have 3 more Icestrike augs which is a major cost.  You're also standing in rampage range etc..  74k is about where a monk with full augs is, and a rogue spamming backstab can do a bit more I think.  Then wizards can do over 80k, but they do need bards/etc pumping mana to sustain it, so I think everything is pretty fairly balanced, and adding a bit more to ranger archery (at a cost of 2-3M pp+ aug mind you) would be justified.

[Kenshou]

My pares was just /autofire on with no buffs or clicks, I did it a while back and got a higher number, although it still does not equal 1hs with no buffs and atk on. my numbers where raw. I would love to spit out the dps with the bow in T5, but anyone that  has an active ranger in T5 knows they are worthless when fighting coral, so ill stick with melee until ranged becomes as viable again.

[chunkumss]

I parsed my ranger, on Shadow or T4 Warlord, at about 50-53k dps, that's without spamming the clicky... I think if you added IceV to the bow, we'd be looking at around 60k, maybe mid 60, and a bit more if you spam the clicky. 

One ISV aug does not do anywhere near 10k dps. Let's just be clear about that.

That being said, I agree with you that allowing bows to use IS augs would not make them overpowered. I would still melee with my ranger.

[Strix]

adding a bit more to ranger archery (at a cost of 2-3M pp+ aug mind you) would be justified.

+1 for me

Strix

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