Class Purpose/Role(s)?

hateborne

Legend

Posts: 2282

Don't nerf me bro!

Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« on: December 13, 2013, 11:48:14 am »

This is likely to be a heated topic. PLEASE keep all conversations civil. Any personal attacks will be submitted to the bossman to be removed. You can reply to others (agree or disagree), but do NOT start attacking each other.

Stay focused.

I am starting this because I want to get a feel from others on how they view the classes. There have been a few things that I keep hearing (such as paladins have no role since rampage has been removed) that are coming from multiple people but seem to be very much the same comment/complaint.

I am not making changes based on these (at least not for awhile). I just want to get a grasp of these things from the masses instead of my number crunches.

Mine:

Bard - Needs more songs/options
Beastlord - Pet needs to stop biting it
Berserker - in a good spot
Cleric - Word of Viv starting to become lackluster with explosive health pools
Druid - in a good spot
Enchanter - pet no longer death touches (will be fixed in source update soon)
Magician - Pet DPS is nearly worthless and the casted DPS is low
Monk - need threat reduction of sorts
Necromancer - Pet DPS is trash, DoTs take too long to unload, low overall dps
Paladin - With removal of rampage damage, exploding health pools, and lack of mitigation, they have no role/purpose around T6 and beyond
Ranger - Needs to pewpew instead of hiyah hoo hah
Rogue - Backstabs rolling over and excessive threat generation
Shadow Knight - need migitation
Shaman - in a very good spot
Warrior - need to die in a fire....j/k, needs some form of interactivity on tanking
Wizard - spell damage scaled too high too quickly, mana cost needs to actually cost mana (through recourse mana drains), and something group friendly

-Hate


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I'm so sorry Hunter, I tried...

Dinadas

Sr. Member

Posts: 301

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 12:04:05 pm »

I'm far from the end game, just broke into T6 with my crew.

Bards - agree more options would be good but I have a few good options to twist post t5, i feel.

All pet classes- maybe they can all get a variant of the researched spell for defense, maybe half the power of the researched one(earned) or some scaled down version.

Don't run a cleric won't talk on it

Pallies - maybe the proc could be worked out to be based on tank's hp divided by 6. Would scale no matter who tanked, but never exceed 18% of tank's hp. Not sure if this is even possible codewise. I think they are hurt the most by the expansive hitpoints.

Monks - I think the threat augs for shoulders are enough, works for me so far.

Zerkers - i agree with role and current place.


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red2

Full Member

Posts: 140

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 12:23:57 pm »

its so bad, i just use my NEC is a coth bi$%@ in t7. totally worthless in t6. i only keep around b/c has the fwp.


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Medic

Newbie

Posts: 27

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 01:25:51 pm »

My Squad is only 6 at the moment. Gear up my second group now I am able to do T5 but figured its best to level up my second group before I move on. So take it with a grain of salt.

Warrior, Cleric, Shaman, Rogue, Monk, Pally

•Cleric - No complaints at T5 point
•Magician - Shelved him because I have no other toon I would drop in his place.
•Monk - The shoulder aug works great so far at this level. Not sure that once he is completely aug'd out as far as he can be its going to be enough. Would love to see a quest to create an augment that adds an aggro reduction portion. I know this is another potential time sink but it would be an option.
•Paladin - Even at T5 I am happy to have the extra healing. If we are going to turn them into backup healers effectively then give a bonus to the 1hs of the epic to healing and give me the option to reduce DPS in place of healing or vice versa. Let me choose to be a defensive or offensive paladin.
•Rogue - See Monk. They need an aggro reducer and I would recommend a quest.
•Shaman - No complaints


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Krunkley, Gimble and Co.

Kwai

Sr. Member

Posts: 299

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 02:22:12 pm »

I am a wizard at heart so I agree with everything you said H8.... except the Wiz. I think their damage is fine, but without a mana necklace they are rapidly drained and useless in boss fights. Even with 2 mil mana my experience has been that they have to have the necklace to be entirely useful and generate the sort of DPS required to hold a perm spot in my line up. Even then they fall behind the monks.

Pallys definitely need a proc bump and a single targ heal spell that heals in the 1 million range T8+.

BIG thumbs up on that CLR single targ upgrade. It really made the difference in my game experience.

At the risk of repeating myself on the BST pet. Proper positioning alone makes them useful. When I park my BST with the casters and take him out of melee his pet lives. It's when I put him in the melee rotation that his pet dies simply from attacking the front of the mob, not the back.


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marxist

Sr. Member

Posts: 293

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 02:59:36 pm »

Your list seems good to me, except I'm not sure about the shaman being good right now, they have a couple long cd group dps buffs, proc vicious disempower (which I don't think stacks w/ tserrina whip proc) and after that are below average healers. Need a little bit more utility or something to drag them along.


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hateborne

Legend

Posts: 2282

Don't nerf me bro!

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 03:04:32 pm »

Quote from: ixidorecu on December 13, 2013, 12:23:57 pm

its so bad, i just use my NEC is a coth bi$%@ in t7. totally worthless in t6. i only keep around b/c has the fwp.

Details please. :-)

Quote from: Kwai on December 13, 2013, 02:22:12 pm

Some of the T7+ spells check for the proper mana amounts, but do not actually consume the correct amount (i.e. 64k mana cost only takes ~31.4k). This gives high mana spells (and their users) a bit of an unfair advantage.

Quote from: marxist on December 13, 2013, 02:59:36 pm

I'll check into the the whip stacking. The long cooldown buffs were intended to be quick, bursty things. The healing should be increased if some/all of my t8 weapon suggestions go in (specifically the item with the 250% focus of healing replacement for shaman/druid).

Keep it coming ladies/gents! :-D

-Hate


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clbreastmilk

Full Member

Posts: 238

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2013, 05:07:29 pm »

A possible angle to tackle pallies is to increase the spell proc line you created for later tiers. There is a dps proc and heal proc spell that cannot stack right? If insane hp pools was ever addressed, this would be easy to adjust.


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Gannicus

Sr. Member

Posts: 319

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2013, 05:19:51 pm »

My only problem with classes currently is the Paladin topic, they were used for sufficient group healing and we're a viable option in a group to make sure your alts who weren't uber geared like the warrior would stay alive through any rampage or DOT etc etc. I think the paladin class in general should be looked out , possibly fixing the healing line for the weapon t6 and above or make them in some way a viable dps option? Otherwise you see people who have UC v2s pallys getting sat out now and being rolled over for a shaman healer... a shaman. Any other opinions on this are welcome


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Chunka

Hero Member
Legend

Posts: 1642

Been gone so long I'm a newbie again!

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2013, 05:26:14 pm »

We discussed this before, Hate, but I DO NOT think pallies should get an increase in tankability. Not many use pallies here as tanks. I say leave the tanking to warrior or SK, and keep pallies as melee healers (sword and shield) or give them a buff that lowers their healing dramatically and makes them better ST dps. Give them the choice of being one or the other (perhaps dependent on the mentioned buff and/or 2h epic), but nothing that turns them into a tank. Just my opinion...and that way because in most groups now, the way pallies were purposed, making them better tanks makes them about as useful as an extra set of tits on a nun. That being said, as we discussed pallies definitely need some love when it comes to heals.

SK I think should be given the option to run with changing a buff and/or epic style between AE dps (somewhere better than druids, not as good as wiz or zerk) or tank. This would allow them to work as a solid add to a group during clears, and then useful as 2nd tank or offtank or even main tank on bigger encounters.

Zerks, monks fine....rangers when epic bow is fixed will be damned good. Rogues need some help as was stated. As far as agro goes....adding a chanter to your buff team or kill team will do wonders for ANY class and agro.

Pet classes need help, and lots of it. Better defenses, yes, but their dps is at best lackluster, too. BST pets IMO arent even worth casting....though with strike augs BST are the highest dps of the pet classes. Necro dps is in the crapper, and no idea how to fix that on shorter fights without completely changing the class. Maybe some better AE dots? Better nukes.....or perhaps lifetaps that suck up huge hps and heal the group a percentage? Dont know....but they need work.

As for mages.....yeah, pets need a little work, but not as much as the other pet classes. I think with IA3 and pet all a mage would need is a little better nuke work and they'd be fine.

Chanters agreed on. Druids and clerics also fine. I dont think clerics need all that much work before T7....but adding a word of viv 2 to Loping or Veeshan would help a ton.

Shammies could use something to give them a bit of a bump for heals. Maybe an increased version of focus of heal....or a better group heal. Or perhaps a weapon proc spell that doesnt stack with kraken that gives a heal proc to the group.

Speaking of weapon proc spells....kraken and tempest blade pretty much only benefit pets. With the melee changes they really dont do much for player DPS. I can see not doing an increase to kraken since shammy already get so much....but creating a better version or TB, or just improving it overall, would do a lot to make it a song worth singing (atm in a pet free group it really isnt). Might also consider a song that increases spell damage superior to the songs already in the bards repertoire..... something that pumps fire and ice damage the way other songs pump magic damage....make them useful to run in tandem with chanter vampiric thunder.

Wizard seems pretty solid atm, as does warrior.....but nerd 6 needs an agro component (or was that removed on purpose?).


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Felony

Sr. Member

Posts: 394

Trump it

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 08:44:19 pm »

I just shelved 2 of my UCv2 paladins because they could not pull their weight for my setup. However I love the paladins and if they were as worked on as my main paladin I would keep them around.
Sure, would be nice to see their healing better but its what it is.
As for them tanking, I've heard people say they are not holding up as well as they would like. I can see that for someones alt but a main paladin should do fine.
My warrior took a dirt nap in tov the other day and I used my main paladin to tank the rest of the fight. Was rough but doable. Doubt I could use it to tank anything when I finally get to T9 but wouldnt expect a knight to tank that stuff from what I've heard.

One question I have is what sort of changes are you thinking of asking for or making Hate? Spells/discs or more?
I can support reasonable and balanced spells/discs (yes melee have discs, lets think about giving them some after all this time).
Non spell/disc changes I wouldn't want to support until after the new proposed weapons are in game and feed back is generated based on player experience with them.


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WatchYouDie

Sr. Member

Posts: 388

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 10:17:12 pm »

I run an odd ball group, however it works. I run Sk 3 bst brd shm clr in my main 8 with 10 more coming up behind it. With this setup I can tank T8 (not dozer).
I have 1.5 mil unbuffed hp running 37% mid. Sks are fine if you want to give them a bump to give the little extra boost need consider uping the other classes around it and possibly uping the epic proc slightly per epic as I suggested even at 125 per lvl would prove to be on par with the progression curve/

clr crabs 2 is only 20k hp see a boost to 200k? yes this would boost all classes including wars but i'm sure they wouldn't mind the help in t9. Bst pets are fine more dps would be great but I have no issues keeping ... hmm wait 3 bst pets alive at once and a sham pet !!!

Bards do need a slight more delection of songs.

Druid/zerk/mnk/war im all ok with. Nec needs a revamp but necros never short term dps


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Gannicus

Sr. Member

Posts: 319

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 05:06:07 am »

I will try to throw around some ideas, (*Note* I am not in in t8/t9 or anything like that but I am in Magister and very good friends with everyone within the guild that is) also giving from what I've heard in general from the community that is in the tiers. The spike in DPS from these tiers is like I said from what I heard scaled around the basis that everyone has a warrior with a high ranked UW, high SOA all things that were from my understand at the time "Optional" and now content is being built around those "optional items".

Here are some ideas to ponder. With the spike in DPS, that would mean we should up spells that give HP like cleric crab, and shaman epic click as one example to give a buff in the HPs it allows without being overpowering. Another being that t7 paladin epics procs from should be upped massively to put off much bigger heals, just an idea.

All around it just seems like in terms of healing power and hp buffs they need an increase to suffice the huge explosion in changes to DPS from mobs. Aside from that - I can't inference on other classes as I don't know much about pet classes and so on.

This for the time being doesn't affect me so you can take what I say worth a grain of salt if you want but I thought i'd put an opinion in based off everything I've heard and what I'm getting from it.


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Dinadas

Sr. Member

Posts: 301

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 10:25:36 am »

I like the ideas of Pallies and SK's being given spells that allow them to focus/spec differently.

Maybe a new focus of healing spell line ups healing 300% from t7 or t8 vendor wherever it is needed.

and maybe a focus of damage, that increases fire damage 150-200% which would only help if aug'd out so no free uber dps.

SK's could maybe get a spell for more mitigation or more damage or maybe a group anti-threat buff.


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WatchYouDie

Sr. Member

Posts: 388

Re: Class Purpose/Role(s)?

« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 10:43:09 am »

If you are having issues on your SK you need to change your group makeup to support it.


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