DPS Comparisons and Parses

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[Dimur]

And to dimuwar, fyi casters really have had any changes or real improvement for years and people have been complaining about the lack of scaling to tier, so asking hate to look into something that been in issue for years versus new content, sorry but some of us would like to see old problems addressed before new headaches come .

This right here tells me you're either trolling, dyslexic, or a fucking retard.

Perhaps I'm alone, but I would much rather see Hate use his limited time on EZ to address content issues rather than tying it up doing arbitrary parses that anyone who sees issues they want addressed could be performing themselves.  You don't need Admin status to run gamparse and show the disparity between equally tiered and geared classes of melee versus caster type characters and using those concrete numbers to extrapolate on what kind of adjustments need to be made to address any issues you might find.

tl;dr Here it is, broken down as simply as it can be... instead of complaining about something needing to be fixed, SHOW WHY it needs to be fixed.  Don't pull arbitrary numbers out of your ass and then attempt to make a comparison by cherry picking situational data and unilaterally applying it as fact while dismissing other factors that may play into it.

[hateborne]

Krinkle, it's not like I can't parse them myself and then do crushing nerfing. That's not my "thing" and a dick move. What I MIGHT adjust is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE gaps (i.e. monk is 200% higher than ALL classes in DPS in ALL tiers, that's CLEARLY a huge gap) Realistically, I'm just looking for extreme gaps or common failings.


Dimur, nailed it bud. :-)
The purpose of the thread is to save me several days of manually parsing this myself.


Rent, that's cool. Play what YOU WANT TO PLAY. If you want to cheese and min/max, what-the-@#%@-ever. That is YOUR call and I'm not trying to demand or force you to play certain things/combos/classes/etc.



-Hate

[Darpey]

As per Warbash's post (the only one so far that's contributed any objective information):

1st run self buffs only on ranger (secrests secret buff) and Crab Fu on mnk.
Scaled
Rog       474467
mnk      439146
rng        391314
bst        355943
bst pet   121188
Brd        348241

Everything looks fine from a melee perspective. Hate - I assume you're just using monk as a hypothetical example. Monk certainly isn't OP as far as I can tell... rogue does *slightly* more damage, but also not OP.

Melee seems balanced to me - Bard is the lowest, but he adds utility benefit (that's not OP)

I can't see how any melee alterations would be a good thing. They don't need to be made better, they certainly don't need a nerf bat.

[hateborne]

Everything looks fine from a melee perspective. Hate - I assume you're just using monk as a hypothetical example. Monk certainly isn't OP as far as I can tell... rogue does *slightly* more damage, but also not OP.

Yeah, just a running joke from forever. I picked on monks to some degree, paladins to a much larger degree (paladin scum!), and hated hardcore on warriors. (yet that didn't stop me from creating some crazy things for all three of them).


-Hate

[Expletus]

When parsing rogues do ppl use Tes.whip or dual daggers?

[hateborne]

When parsing rogues do ppl use Tes.whip or dual daggers?

Either or both. Just make sure you specify which one(s) you tested with.


-Hate

[Krinkle]

Was just voicing my concerns, ive got t9 uc2 int casters but dont understand how to parse them, should I do the most dps i can possibly do or only use the top level highest dmg spell? I dont know how they would be used with regular clearing of trash so im confused on how to parse them.

[Dimur]

Generally the best way to parse is to maximize what you can do for damage output, it's easy for melee parses because all you have to do is hit autoattack and click whatever abilities or items you can to generate dps...with a caster you have to figure out what the best way of doing dmg is.  Just twisting the same spell over and over might be a realistic way to do it for some, but isn't for classes that have a recourse effect from casting one spell that boosts another spell...like casting a certain heal to get a dmg bonus on cold based DD spells or whatever.  The best parses are going to be ones that can really show a toon's potential, even if the situation doesn't seem realistic you'd just cite that as a qualifier when posting the dps you get.

[Chunka]

Rogue is I believe the only ninjastrike class that can use a  Tswhip and still benefit from ingenuity, and that advantage as I recall is a pretty big one (15% bigger crits IIRC). I seem to recall from the last parses I did (granted, 4 or 5 months ago) that rogues were slightly better for me DPS wise than monks.

[Darpey]

Ranger and Bard also are Ninjastrike capable and can use Tserrina's Whip

Any of the three NS classes that can use would gain 9% DPS with NSX1's... more percentage for NS9's or 10's (650k strike damage vs. 712k strike damage)

[Darpey]

Well damn, now I'm all curious...

Ran bard on QRG Practice Dummy with and without TWhip (NOT using any additional strike aug on the slot 8... just to see the effect of the TWhip proc... that and I don't have a NS8)

T9 Bard NSXI using Saw Bladed Scimitar Primary (NSXI) and Tserrina's Whip Secondary (NSXI) - UC2
WITH Tserrina's Whip - 1.33m
WITHOUT Tserrina's Whip (Desert Shank Instead) - 1.41m


lol - wasn't expecting that. I guess it's the white damage difference:
T Whip - 3500 damage
Desert Shank - 5300

Although you can still put a NS8 on the TWhip which I didn't do...

Bad results... not sure why - see next post

[Darpey]

Take 2...
T9 UC2 Bard - only buffed with "Tserrina's Vampiric Nature Recourse" when using Tserrina's Whip

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11, NS8
1.52m (200 seconds)

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Tserrina's Whip NS11
1.35m (200 seconds)

Primary: Saw Bladed Scimitar NS11 ~~ Secondary: Desert Shank NS11
1.38m (200 seconds)

so... not sure what I did wrong the first time, but these results were more controlled... so it IS worth using Tserrina's Whip after all

[Rymo]

(added zerker 2hs version)

All T9 armor, UC3, SoA45(WAR 55), Epic9.0, Level 77
WAR UW11(2hs), RoA1000, T9 Bow, Earring rank50
PAL UW11(2hs), RoA625, T8 Bow,
BER UW11(1hs + T9 shield), RoA550, Jeweler's candlelight(T7 special range)
ROG UW11(1hp + Twhip Ninja11+8), RoA621, T8 Bow, Earring rank50
MNK UW11(HtoH + T9 fist Ninja11), RoA570, Jeweler's candlelight(T7 special range)
RNG UW11(1hs + Twhip Ninja11+8), RoA318, T9 Bow

Buffs / Ancient: Vampiric Thunder, Ancient: Melee Haste, Howl of the Huntmaster2
Self buffs / Over Raided Zerker Haste(BER), Crab Fu(MNK), Secrets2(RNG)
Combat Abilities (on group buff) / Cry Havoc(BER), Fists of Wu(MNK)
Epic Click Effect / BER 9.0
Combat Skill / Backstab(ROG), Flying Kick(MNK)
UW Aug / Hatestomp4(WAR)
Pet buffs (leave pet)
IG(WAR), Mistress(PAL, ROG, MNK, RNG), Angryface(BER)


FG Dummy 600sec (MT WAR, others attack from behind)
WAR 6742698 (6740k) / T8T9 Earring 4482203 (4480k)
PAL 2823002 (2820k)
BER 1hs 3973093 (3970k) - without Epic 3220818 (3220k) = AE DPS 752275 (752k)
BER 2hs 5353561 (5350k) - without Epic 4578074 (4570k) = AE DPS 775487 (775k)
ROG 6645724 (6640k) / T8T9 Earring 6558101 (6550k)
MNK 5345419 (5340k)
RNG 3994369 (3990k)

QRG Dummy 600sec (MT WAR, others attack from behind)
WAR 12744384 (12700k) / T8T9 Earring 6993936 (6990k)
PAL 3926538 (3920k)
BER 1hs 5667802 (5660k) - without Epic 5064523 (5060k) = AE DPS 603279 (603k)
BER 2hs 8686464 (8680k) - without Epic 7919974 (7910k) = AE DPS 766490 (766k)
ROG 10743605 (10740k) / T8T9 Earring 10184613 (10180k)
MNK 6305716 (6300k)
RNG 5000043 (5000k)

I think +- 100 or 200k

Rymo, from Japan (not good at english)

[aythena]

Awesome parses and yet 0 have been the main classes that were mentioned needing improvement. 0 mage parses 0 wizard 0 enc 0 necro 0 shm 0 druid. The whole arguement was that DD based spells were not progressing in damage to the relative tier that they drop in, but I will have it done as soon as I can get my mage a ucv2 finished and get this game parse program working.

[aythena]

(quote dimu)
This right here tells me you're either trolling, dyslexic, or a fucking retard.

I am number dyslexic thanks but I still manage just fine.

 Here it is, broken down as simply as it can be... instead of complaining about something needing to be fixed, SHOW WHY it needs to be fixed.  Don't pull arbitrary numbers out of your ass and then attempt to make a comparison by cherry picking situational data and unilaterally applying it as fact while dismissing other factors that may play into it.
[/quote]
I am not pulling numbers out of my ass thank very much, I am going by a standard idea of procs vs nukes which has been used many times in the past, for instance NS10 does a base damage of 275k, stand nukes in tier 8 (relative tier zone area) do 100-160k, how is that a even balance in nuke damage or even within the same ball park, that is my arguement sir and not to mention the fact that spells do require time to cast as many have said, there a delay cast re cast time and several contribution factors involved versus strike augs procing in any given combat round, so the arguement is why are DD's not scaled to relative strike aug levels per tier, for instance a INSANITY rank 5 tier 8 spell is 100k nuke were is NS 10 is 275k, yes I understand it cost money it takes time to farm, but to be fair it takes time to UC a caster, it takes time to farm and earn the spell (you can't craft tier 8 9 spells) there also the fact that you don't just mem it and the caster procs it as a buff its a spell you have to command the box to cast, even if it had a higher delay recast time it would make the scaling more relative the time and investment spent getting that class to to its respective tier. For instance tier 7 shaman highest nuke is 45k? where as druids have a 75k epic clicky? There several spells damage base that are completely off in their values and that what I  was explaining to hate, why Do I feel they need to be increased because it enables caster when they do nuke to nuke not just do .001 of damage to a boss where your NS wielders are doing 1-5% to same tier bosses same tier strike augs. Their is no nuke its just a joke.
Best way to compare nukes is to compare them to strike augs its Direct damage relative to tier ie ns fs is, for instance a priest nuke should be on par with an IS of resepective tier, a caster should have nukes respective to a NS. Does that mean every class should have the same nuke spell damage no, should a mage have the same nuke as a wizard not even close, best values i could say is respective mage nuke tier 8 should be theoritically 250k, wizard 325k, enchanter 200k, once again spells have a delay recast, proc strike augs do not, this wouldnt make caster a cheap way to dps without spending plat or time, once again still need uc's to make the damage noteworthy, you still want mana necks to keep there mana sustained (this is why I suggested increased mana cost and higher cast time delay). Its a very effective damage comparision to tier ratio. IE clerics shm druid nuke spells should be tuned to the same relevence as IS10 for tier 8 or is9 for tier 7 etc etc. This way people that want to do more then just command toons to auto attack and want to use the great spells and designs that were thought out in the game get more reward for using the time and effort placed into setting up our boxes to do more then just cast scale, or kraken, or proc mana neck, our casters actually offer effective relative damage to tier.

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