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[Kruciel]

Thought I'd start up another discussion on what people think of current epics. It feels as though the same 3 have been dominant and amazing for years, some go unnoticed, and then there are the pet dudes that Chunka enjoys so much. Regardless of how I feel about pet classes, I'm going to separate them out of this discussion, since the obvious choice with 10.0's are just to make them all summon "super duper pet 10.0". I'm only going to list the ones I have in my current setup as well, as I can't speak to how good the Wizard epic is, so that's getting left out as well.

Legend:
Green = good?
Orange = So so?
Red = lolwut

9.0 Clickys
Warrior => Warrior's Defense VII  50% stonewall + 35k HP buff, it's amazing
Pally => Warmth of Light V Group wide regen buff, no clue if it scales with charm, assuming it does? Never saw much use out of this. Could be removed so pallys can enjoy Ult Weapon clicks
Bard => One Man Band VIII Raid wide song buff increasing all aug / epic / spell damage. Currently broken tho  
Berserker => Taelosian Fury 9.0 120,960 aoe damage with Decrease Hate by 187,200, amazing
Monk => Deceptive Strike VIII Decrease Hate by 1,550,000 and Cancel Magic (6) the hate drop is unnecessary and the Cancel Magic is too weak of a Dispel to drop buffs from a fully buffed mob if you're trying to get a dmg shield or drake skin off. Very underwhelming epic click, which resulted in my not even using the aug in my monk's weapon, as this click blocked his Ultimate Cleave clicky, which is also underwhelming.
Rogue => No clicky, old clicky was changed to the new Worn bonus because nobody was able to use it from a box perspective.
Ranger => Trickshot 9.0 75,000 single target damage, 9 second cooldown. Underwhelming damage considering the zerker epic hits harder, aoes, and faster cooldown.
Druid => Vine Grasp XI I've seriously contemplated what brought this click to replace the Epic Regen line. I'm not even going to post what it does, it's a useless piece of poop.
Shaman => Ancestral Honor 9.0 Buff: 132,000 HP - Heroic all stats +40 - amazing
Cleric => Vivificate the Masses VIII Instant Cast, Raid Wide, Heal for 90,000, cure poison(24), disease(24), curse(16), detrimental(9) 48 second cooldown. All around neat spell. I don't use it too often, but in testing I've never seen the Remove detrimental(9) actually remove malo or incisor. Maybe it could be upped from (9) since it's a 48 second cooldown anyways?

9.0 Worn Effects / Passives / Combat Procs
Warrior => Cyclone Blade (Combat Proc) Does very minor threat and spam hits everything for 20-50 damage constantly. Getting rid of this waste would just be cutting down on useless clutter that the server has to process. It has no effect on holding threat past HoH. Maybe the 3.0 should keep it.
                 Rage of the Dragorn (Worn) Increase Aggro Multiplier by 18% Neato, but if rollover pops up again someday, give this thing a nerf.
Pally => Avenger's Touch 9.0 (Combat Proc) Group wide heal for 25,000-26,000 and another 96,000 (no clue what that's about), cure disease (32), poison(32), curse(32) Very strong, I like
Bard => N/A Not sure if the Bard Epic aug can mimc the original Bard epics that count as you having all instruments being equipped, but that effect was awesome.
Berserker => Taelosian Fury 9.0 (Combat Proc) 120,960 aoe damage with Decrease Hate by 187,200, amazing
Monk => Remissive Remedy (Combat Proc) Self cure some counters, who cares. Effect is underwhelming and as I said above, my monk doesn't even use his epic aug at the moment  
Rogue => Daggerfall X (Worn) Increase Backstab Chance to Hit 2500%, Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 510%, Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 510% . Incredibly strong, and the reason Rogues are the top damage with Ult weapons, until the Earring 50 comes in to play at least.
Ranger => N/A Kinda sad here since the click is so weak
Druid => N/A Kinda sad here since the click is so weak
Shaman => Vicious Disempower III (Combat Proc) Single Target Mob Debuff ~ Decrease Accuracy by 10%, STR by 75, STA by 75, AC by 209, All Skills Minimum Damage by 10%, All Skills Damage by 10%. Also when proc'd gives the ENTIRE RAID a song buff called Vicious Disempower III Recourse: Increase Accuracy 5%, Increase STR 38, Increase STA 38, Increase AC 62, Increase All Skills Damage Modifier 5%, Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier 5%. This proc combined with the fact Shamans can crit with Icestrike via Spell Crit AAs are the reason my Shaman is a melee champion. All around good stuff.
Cleric => Holy Knight Strike 9.0 (Combat Proc) Decrease Hitpoints by 11,500. Has a hidden group heal mechanic built in that does 1/10 of the amount the Paladin proc does. Pretty bleh. I don't bother melee'ing with my cleric as a result. Instead, he follows me around, out of group, casting Over Raided Healing II, Tower of Vie III, and using his epic click as an instant big heal. Edit: Just got cleric's UC3 last night, and Over Raided Healing 2 single target heals for less than the paladin's autoattack group heal. Big sad face.

Ultimate Augments
Hatestomp - Deals damage and threat in an AOE. Almost deals double the damage of Anger VI at rank IV, but I still feel like it could get a slight bump and not be overpowered. The amount of time and work that goes into attaining an Ult Weapon and then following that up with grinding Dranik / Bloodmoon for 3 months just to  reach a stage where you do double damage of an aug that you can achieve from clearing HoH one time is not very satisfying. I'd suggest Rank 1: 12k, rank 2: 24k, rank 3: 44k, rank 4: 75k

Wild Arc Swing - Deals AOE damage. Deals less damage than a zerker, triple the cooldown. Again, I could easily catch a zerker up to t9 in the 3 months it takes to grind this aug out and do loads more damage. Not too satisfying in the end. I feel like bringing it in line with the zerker click would be boring, and I doubt it'll be buffed to surpass it. Maybe it could do something fun, like changing it to a combat proc and add stuff similar to the old ranger epics (since most classes are taking issue with their epics already having a click effect.) Something along the lines of Combat Proc: Deal x damage, 50% chance to do x single target damage, 20% chance to proc a x AOE damage, and a 1% chance to cast Illusion: Sporali and /shout UNCE UNCE UNCE

[Kruciel]

Trying to debunk what the Bard Epic is doing:

These are critical blasts only, as I have all non-melee damage filtered off.
(uc3)Hatestomp III dmg: 626,368
(uc3)Ultimate Zweihander XI proc dmg: 13,735,312
(uc3)Firsestrike XI dmg: 3,680,000
(uc3)Zerk 9.0 dmg: 2,921,184
(uc3)Ninjastrike XI dmg: 7,848,750
(uc3)Ultimate Dagger XI proc dmg: 9,026,062
(uc2)Icestrike XI dmg: 1,500,000
(uc2)Insanity V chanter nuke: 2,126,125
(uc2)Taelosian Victory II mage nuke: 5,313,625
(uc2)Super Secret T10 mage nuke: 6,750,000

Damage with Bard song UP
(uc3)Hatestomp III dmg: 802,318 (working)
(uc3)Ultimate Zweihander XI proc dmg: 13,735,312
(uc3)Firsestrike XI dmg: 4,715,000 (working)
(uc3)Zerk 9.0 dmg: 2,921,184
(uc3)Ninjastrr=yellow](uc3)[/color]Ultimate Dagger XI proc dmg: 9,026,062
(uc2)Icestrike XI dmg: 2,062,500 (working)
(uc2)Insanity V chanter nuke: 2,126,125
(uc2)Taelosian Victory II mage nuke: 5,313,625
(uc2)Super Secret T10 mage nuke: 9,281,250 (working)

Seems to be working on everything that does elemental damage only.

[Chunka]

Were those numbers taken with VT2 on the procing classes, too? Because I believe VT2 overwrites bard epic.

[Kruciel]

Were those numbers taken with VT2 on the procing classes, too? Because I believe VT2 overwrites bard epic.

No, it doesn't, and it never has. My zerkers used to aoe for over 3 mil with both effects.

[Kruciel]

All of these values are from having VT2 active. I was going to click it off for another test to see if it was indeed a stacking issue, but after I saw some things were still working, I disregarded it being a stacking issue.

[Brannyn]

Sucks since my bards are almost completely caught up to the rest of my crew =/.  It broke sometime after I started working them up

[balidet]

God damn it .......fine....FINE!!

I am going to make a shammy...fuck......I have held off this long but I need to farm up another UW and the best way to farm essence is to run another toon up....


....

Do I drop a zerk? maybe my wizzy i just geared up....one of the 4 zerks? hrm..

[Fuzzypoodle]

Good post... I have  an easy policy for characters... one of each!!! then use everything they have for dps and Everything dies real quick like! ... enough said   

[hateborne]

9.0 Clickys
Warrior => Warrior's Defense VII  50% stonewall + 35k HP buff, it's amazing
Pally => Warmth of Light V Group wide regen buff, no clue if it scales with charm, assuming it does? Never saw much use out of this. Could be removed so pallys can enjoy Ult Weapon clicks
Bard => One Man Band VIII Raid wide song buff increasing all aug / epic / spell damage. Currently broken tho  
Berserker => Taelosian Fury 9.0 120,960 aoe damage with Decrease Hate by 187,200, amazing
Monk => Deceptive Strike VIII Decrease Hate by 1,550,000 and Cancel Magic (6) the hate drop is unnecessary and the Cancel Magic is too weak of a Dispel to drop buffs from a fully buffed mob if you're trying to get a dmg shield or drake skin off. Very underwhelming epic click, which resulted in my not even using the aug in my monk's weapon, as this click blocked his Ultimate Cleave clicky, which is also underwhelming.
Rogue => No clicky, old clicky was changed to the new Worn bonus because nobody was able to use it from a box perspective.
Ranger => Trickshot 9.0 75,000 single target damage, 9 second cooldown. Underwhelming damage considering the zerker epic hits harder, aoes, and faster cooldown.
Druid => Vine Grasp XI I've seriously contemplated what brought this click to replace the Epic Regen line. I'm not even going to post what it does, it's a useless piece of poop.
Shaman => Ancestral Honor 9.0 Buff: 132,000 HP - Heroic all stats +40 - amazing
Cleric => Vivificate the Masses VIII Instant Cast, Raid Wide, Heal for 90,000, cure poison(24), disease(24), curse(16), detrimental(9) 48 second cooldown. All around neat spell. I don't use it too often, but in testing I've never seen the Remove detrimental(9) actually remove malo or incisor. Maybe it could be upped from (9) since it's a 48 second cooldown anyways?

Kruciel, thanks for the post.

Paladin - Click should scale with charm and should heal unholy amounts for it's duration. Good if you need extra heals or paladin is unable to be in melee range (for whatever reason).
Bard - I'll look in to it tomorrow morning.
Monk - Hmm. Potentially time to review epic effects again?
Rogue - They have enough to click on.
Ranger - It *should* be scaling and proc'ing other things. I'll review the script and effect. Fixed the resist type from "Physical" to "Magic" (live with normal reboot). Script wise: 10% chance for Root, 20% chance for Debuff (Trickshot's Crushing Defeat, 10% more melee damage), 25% chance for Snare, and 1% chance per cast for Mortal Wound (5mil dmg, 10% chance for it to trigger again, which has a 10% chance to trigger again, etc etc). May strengthen debuff?
Druid - This should be scaling pretty disgustingly high, but no one likes DoTs on EZ. The epic regen was removed and became a player spell (Timeless: Druid Regeneration, later Timeless: Pack Regeneration too).

9.0 Worn Effects / Passives / Combat Procs
Warrior => Cyclone Blade (Combat Proc) Does very minor threat and spam hits everything for 20-50 damage constantly. Getting rid of this waste would just be cutting down on useless clutter that the server has to process. It has no effect on holding threat past HoH. Maybe the 3.0 should keep it.
                 Rage of the Dragorn (Worn) Increase Aggro Multiplier by 18% Neato, but if rollover pops up again someday, give this thing a nerf.
Pally => Avenger's Touch 9.0 (Combat Proc) Group wide heal for 25,000-26,000 and another 96,000 (no clue what that's about), cure disease (32), poison(32), curse(32) Very strong, I like
Bard => N/A Not sure if the Bard Epic aug can mimc the original Bard epics that count as you having all instruments being equipped, but that effect was awesome.
Berserker => Taelosian Fury 9.0 (Combat Proc) 120,960 aoe damage with Decrease Hate by 187,200, amazing
Monk => Remissive Remedy (Combat Proc) Self cure some counters, who cares. Effect is underwhelming and as I said above, my monk doesn't even use his epic aug at the moment  
Rogue => Daggerfall X (Worn) Increase Backstab Chance to Hit 2500%, Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 510%, Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 510% . Incredibly strong, and the reason Rogues are the top damage with Ult weapons, until the Earring 50 comes in to play at least.
Ranger => N/A Kinda sad here since the click is so weak
Druid => N/A Kinda sad here since the click is so weak
Shaman => Vicious Disempower III (Combat Proc) Single Target Mob Debuff ~ Decrease Accuracy by 10%, STR by 75, STA by 75, AC by 209, All Skills Minimum Damage by 10%, All Skills Damage by 10%. Also when proc'd gives the ENTIRE RAID a song buff called Vicious Disempower III Recourse: Increase Accuracy 5%, Increase STR 38, Increase STA 38, Increase AC 62, Increase All Skills Damage Modifier 5%, Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier 5%. This proc combined with the fact Shamans can crit with Icestrike via Spell Crit AAs are the reason my Shaman is a melee champion. All around good stuff.
Cleric => Holy Knight Strike 9.0 (Combat Proc) Decrease Hitpoints by 11,500. Has a hidden group heal mechanic built in that does 1/10 of the amount the Paladin proc does. Pretty bleh. I don't bother melee'ing with my cleric as a result. Instead, he follows me around, out of group, casting Over Raided Healing II, Tower of Vie III, and using his epic click as an instant big heal. Edit: Just got cleric's UC3 last night, and Over Raided Healing 2 single target heals for less than the paladin's autoattack group heal. Big sad face.

Warrior - I would be so fine with that. :-)
Bard - They have quite a few effects going as it is. Not fond of adding too many passive "wins".
Monk - Will re-evaluate.
Ranger - See note above.
Druid - They are caster hybrids, but potentially an increasing buff duration increase to HoTs (EXCLUDING DRAKE) or increase the Frosty/Generous Feelings system. (Which should be scripted and scaling)
Cleric - It's basically just some basic healing and basic damage. They aren't DPS, so a subpar proc fits. They have fairly nasty healing through OVH2, with decent healing through Word of Vivification II (T8/T9).

Ultimate Augments
Hatestomp - Deals damage and threat in an AOE. Almost deals double the damage of Anger VI at rank IV, but I still feel like it could get a slight bump and not be overpowered. The amount of time and work that goes into attaining an Ult Weapon and then following that up with grinding Dranik / Bloodmoon for 3 months just to  reach a stage where you do double damage of an aug that you can achieve from clearing HoH one time is not very satisfying. I'd suggest Rank 1: 12k, rank 2: 24k, rank 3: 44k, rank 4: 75k

Wild Arc Swing - Deals AOE damage. Deals less damage than a zerker, triple the cooldown. Again, I could easily catch a zerker up to t9 in the 3 months it takes to grind this aug out and do loads more damage. Not too satisfying in the end. I feel like bringing it in line with the zerker click would be boring, and I doubt it'll be buffed to surpass it. Maybe it could do something fun, like changing it to a combat proc and add stuff similar to the old ranger epics (since most classes are taking issue with their epics already having a click effect.) Something along the lines of Combat Proc: Deal x damage, 50% chance to do x single target damage, 20% chance to proc a x AOE damage, and a 1% chance to cast Illusion: Sporali and /shout UNCE UNCE UNCE

Will think on this. No immediate reply.


-Hate

[warrior5]

For the TLDR folks:

Ranger, Druid and Monk epics are crap and bard epic is broken. Rest have various ups and downs.

P.S. If you remove cyclone blade please replace with something fun Like a % chance to crippling blow or something.

[Kruciel]

Cleric - It's basically just some basic healing and basic damage. They aren't DPS, so a subpar proc fits. They have fairly nasty healing through OVH2, with decent healing through Word of Vivification II (T8/T9).

I'm not so sure about that. ORH2 is decent. Combat swing heals for 1/10 of the pally, word of viv 2 heals for 2/10 of the pally. Their single target tank heal doesn't even outheal the pally. The only real benefit the cleric brings is Tower of Vie and a massive instant 'oh shit' heal button from their epic click. I'm definitely glad I have my little guy, but Pally's do much more dps and healing than clerics currently.

Base amounts of the heals are:
Cleric - Word of Viv 2 = AOE - 20k
Cleric - Combat Proc = AOE - Unknown but does ~50% of viv2 so we'll say 10k
Cleric - ORH2 = ST - 75k

Pally - Epic 9 proc = AOE - 25k + 96k + (5pct max)

I have both pally's proc'ing over 3 mil group heals (and more heals from their temporary Strike buff), while Viv 2 is only doing 700k. The only thing in the cleric's arsenal that competes is the 48 second cooldown Epic 9 clicky, which is a 90k base.

Just pointing out the values though, I'm glad I have my cleric for ToV3 either way. He was a MASSIVE help in the t10 test. If this spell could be calculated as raw healing, the cleric would win out in the single target healing category hands down. I just had this gut feeling their heals should outdo a pally that is a passive auto-attack damage dealing monster of a class. To be fair, ORH2 does drop in t8, but so does viv2 and that spell is really low atm.

[Kruciel]

Thanks for the big response Hate, I really did think the Ranger epic script was gone. I know it used to spell out all the %'s on the epic for all to see, but 9.0 has just said "deals 75,000 damage" for a while.

I like all of the responses, but it's not very likely anyone is going to be able pull off a hybrid role of going back and forth between dpsing + healing midfight on the druid to gain all these cool benefits. Typically, with the boxes, you'll have your melee all do one thing, casters all do one thing, and healers all do one thing, with messages sent to them in the groups you put them in. Having 1 player in the raid constantly swapping targets and roles is a giant fustercluck when controlling 18 characters. The only way I see this working is using the druid as caster dps and after the fight is over, use the Gift of Healing proc to reapply regen. I don't see a world where anyone is going to be able to pull off a hybrid rotation on a boxed character, similar to how nobody was able to use the old rogue Daggerfall. It would require not only making a few buttons JUST to control that 1 character, but also add complication for extremely minimal gain when there are way more important things to be doing from the Warrior's POV. I don't really mind how druids end up, because all mine does for now is cast regen / skin and spot heal.

In its current state, druid is strong enough to always have a spot on my team, even doing 0 dps, so if they keep all this cool hybrid stuff it really doesn't bother me  

[hateborne]

T9 druid using UCv2 (no Mana Neck): 255k per tic /// ~829k per crit tic
T9 druid using UCv2 & Mana Neck XI: ~606 per tic /// ~1.96mil per crit tic
T9 druid using UCv3 (no Mana Neck): 340k per tic /// ~1.1mil per crit tic
T9 druid using UCv3 & Mana Neck XI: ~690k per tic /// ~2.24mil per crit tic
T9 druid using UCv3, Mana Neck XI, and Earring50: ~1.72mil per tic /// 5.59mil per crit tic

I don't think the druid is bad, consider 1 click = 4 dotted mobs. Given that, yes, you may be one rounding mobs...some of your melee are just as useless as the firepower is just too great. :-)


-Hate


Also, pets should be fixed. :-)

[Leis]

Is the damage portion still tied to the snare effect? As many named mobs are immune to the snare effect, often mobs who have the hp to live long enough for a few ticks are immune to it.

[Ponzi]

This seems like the ideal place to bring this idea up...

First of all, i have no idea if it will be a coding nightmare or not.

I learned two things reading this:

1. ) Wild Arc Swing is not passive. Oops. Time to add to my hotkeys lol.

2. ) I'm sure more than a few of us have absolutely 0 idea what half of these UW augs truly do.

Which brings me to the actual suggestion:

One of the coolest features about Ultimate Weapons is how you can hand the bow into the guy in the crafter guild and it turns it into a dagger.. Turn it back in and he gives you the long sword.. etc..

Could we potentially get one of these for the UW augs? Like i said I'm no programmer and dont know if it'd be more trouble that its worth..

But it would be superfun to try out Ult Protection one day, laugh at a lifetapping monk the next, give your paladin hatestomp and see if  he can survive a t9 pull, play around with warrior thorns.

The buzz berries are a big time investment, it'd be kinda fun to be able to swap  augs around if we've already grinded the 950 berries.

If its even possible. And obviously it'd be something way, way low on the post t10/halloween priority tree.

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