EZ Server

I would love to see Warriors show up as the top pure tanking class on the server.  They should never be able to stand alone.  But, with healing, I think warriors should be the absolute best tanks in game.  They don't need to have any DPS, really, just be able to stand in there and absorb more damage than anyone else :)

I have a couple of suggestions that I would like to put out there...

First, a big 2hs weapon.

Much of the damage warriors take in higher end content is due to riposte.  If they could hand in their 2 epics (starting at 3.0) and receive a single 2hs epic with the same stats as the combined 1hs, and 4 aug slots to allow for greater aggro production, it would go a long way to reducing Warrior deaths in T5+ (and on Kern).

They could choose to be a dps warrior, and put damage augs in their 2 X 1hs, or choose to be a tank and carry a big stick, so to speak.

Second, mitigation.

Warriors should be able to take a punch better than anyone in the game.  That's what they train for...

As of T4, Paladins have Kaldar's Helping Hand, and with UC that becomes a perminent stonewall for them.  I propose that the effect on the T4+ Warrior epic weapon be an innate damage reduction, without the snare of SW.  If it could be made to scale with their Guardian Charm (ie Guaridan 11 = 10%, 21 = 15%, 31 = 20%, 41 = 25% and UC = 40%) that would be a similar scaling to the paladin's ability to keep Kaldar's up as mana pool and regen increases.  This damage reduction would stack with Stonewall.  So, a Warrior standing in against a boss would take less damage than a similarly geared knight, and would, in emergency, have the ability to stonewall and take even less (with all the movement restrictions that come with that).

This damage reduction should only be on the 2hs epic.  If a warrior chooses to use their 1hs for better dps with IS augs in, they give up the damage mitigation that a "Tanking" warrior enjoys.

Any discussion, or other suggestions is welcome.

Updates from other player's ideas and suggestions...

+1

Something to this effect might make me dust off my warrior and get him some T6 gear.

Brokyn hit this right on the head. I have to manage my attacks in T6 by turning them on and off through the fight just to stay alive.. ( and this isn't because of enrage it's the Riposte! )

I hope Hunter can just "try" a few of these ideas if they don't work well, just change it back.

I to agree a Meatmagnet needs to be able to absorb a lot of Damage, and upset (hate) the mob so much it refuses to switch targets

2 HAND SWORD, From let's say 4.0 and up hell I really don't know where to start this weapon. ( Please Add input for 3.0 and 3.5 )



NEW 2HANDED SWORD

4.0
30K HPS
120 AC
215/30
(4) Aug slots
8% worn Damage reduction


4.5
40k HPS
140AC
250/30
(4) Aug slots
16% worn Damage reduction


5.0
60k HPS
175 AC
300/30  
(4) Aug slots
24% worn Damage reduction


Also for the the Stonewalls we have right now
-Extend the length by 1 or 2 mins and remove snare ( this by no way will break anything )
-3.5/4.0 Timer 1
-4.5/5.0 Timer 2
-Skill SW Timer 3

These changes are open for ideas and thoughts please feel free to add anything. This will not add damage to warriors but allow them to be better damage magnets.

I say we try worse case can just undo!!




Brokyn's Input is awesome also please don't misplace this great input too, as he put it have it scale with the charm! I'm just throwing out some other ideas

From my experience in T6 rolling with a warrior I use him as an off-tank which seems silly for the "Tank" class. I pull with my paladin and if i get 1 extra mob I let aoe from warrior keep threat on it till first mob is dead. However, if I get 3-4 extra mobs I just smash stonewall and warrior off-tanks 3-4 mobs while my group assists the paladin.

As for living ability they are amazing with stonewall, but other than that they lack the "tank" feel to me. 

I'd love to roll with the warrior tanking most trash and bosses with paladin off-tanking, and with the experience I've had in T6 so far.. your ideas seem like it could revive most players warriors back into their lineup.

I really like this idea. For a long while the only two classes that made any sense to roll was a warrior and a cleric. The knight classes got reworked and have a solid position in any group. This allows warriors to go with their intended roll without taking anything away from knight classes. I don't think it was intended to make paladins the new warriors but that is in effect what has happened. Might even consider an AoE alot 8 hate aug with only 1 slot 8 on the weapon. (Not anger 5 as it does not generate hate beyond hate from spell damage).

I just made a warrior, i'd love to see this implemented, I always looked at warriors as a class who could tank everything while other tanks were there to support/ OT if needed. I'd never use my paladin as a MT as she's the main source of my healing and wouldn't want her to be down.

good ideas so far. I'll have to think out a more through reply.
Atm I use warrior for single target agro and on more then a 2 pull stonewall and agro on both paladins.

Just gonna throw this out as a devil's advocate type thing I suppose...

Sk's have no utility on the server except for tanking, either. (not like a paladin who is also a main healer). So boosting a warrior WAY past an SK would be unfair to those people who MT an SK. I agree warriors are broken. Way broken. Like WTF broken, but SK's could use a stonewall or something as well since their only role on the server is tank, too. Unless someone is rolling em for DPS? /boggle

Let's work on 1 class at a time, so Hunter sees this as feedback to improve things..  

This in no way Hurts the SK class atm, they can and still will be valid tanks..

Brokyn is a SK tank, Severs is a Pally tank, Soul is a Pally tank, Xiggie is a Pally tank all end game.

Warriors Tanking abilities just got sidetracked.  

But lets readdress class by class slowly in a nice supportive Feedback way.

SK's and Pallies both are "tank" classes that CAN MT, but I agree. One class at a time. All the ideas at the top sounded great, and I really liked the scaling damage mitigation with charms. Also, stonewall should be extended a little bit, or someting. I remember when coming into new content in my group it would take me longer than both forms of defensive to kill a named... Maybe I just have super slow DPS, which I'm not denying, but I figure that going into new content with previous content's "good" dps would probably still take quite awhile to take down nameds. And as stated, it surely wouldn't break anything, especially since paladins get endless Stonewall.

Holler at me in game when you get on today Luca  ;D  I know your goon anyway "R"

For sure man. I'll hit you up.

Keep em coming, i suggest though, brokyn if you can update your original post with what the suggestions are, so hunter doesn't have to ramble through all this babbling and shit and just be like fuck you guys type too much and not read it. If you don't feel like it, since i have 2nd post, i can edit mine with a condensed suggestion section.

yeah might want to do that Solbash put it on both Brokyn's and your's, so nothing gets lost in .. shuffling

I'll do it tomorrow after i've had some sleep and can read straight. If i did it now, hunter would still be like wtf did he say

Yeah, I will add summaries of other suggestions to my post at regular intervals.  Not going to try to keep up with live updates :P

Giving Warrior more mitigation would be useful, but not really fun :)

What about giving the warrior AA skill that gives him a chance to live instead of dying when they go under 0HP? I think clerics have that AA, but not sure on the details for it - if it works by HP % or a set a mount.

Currently Warrior's are not most DPS or even most durable, but they do get free nerd Augs and can hold agro very well, which is pretty important and makes them useful in cases where bosses spawn many adds.

I think giving them even a big HP boost through items could make them more useful as they would outclass others in similar level of gear. Making them able to tank tougher encounters.

The problem is when you turn attack on with the riposte you die plain and simple.. Mitigation will be the only way to help move forward on this..

I have to tank in T6 not attacking with  my warrior just clicking clickies..

We are not talking about Augs and everything else just the ability to take/reduce damage.  Adding lots of HPs will not do this they should have some % increase but still will get ate alive during fights..
When I take a round of 165K x4 Ripostes I die period with 3 pallys and 1 cleric ALL MAX.

Adding a 2Handed weapon will prevent massive Riposte Spike damage and still allow them to tank and absorb damage.. I could care less if their DPS was lower then now

its less then 40k with angers btw with a 5.0 with 4 ISVIs and Krak its 53k

but not about augs its about damage reduction

Thanks !!!still great for adding some input!!

AA is cool thought, still die a lot with ripostes though

Although I would like to see warriors with a little bit more hp I don't think the solution lies so much in boosting hp. Reason being is to see an increase in survivability you would have to nearly double the hp to get the same effect of a 1 2hs vs 2 1hs. Warrior already has the aa delay death but when you are getting hit in one round for 165k, there is just no point in delay death.

I am paladin, but i too would like to see some mitigation improvment on warriors or something that would make them at least able to tank the higher content without reducing the rest of us or changing the mobs ( i find them fun just the way they are). If its possible i think the improved mitigation would be whats needed.

Just from what Ive seen in starting off in T5 -- My warrior - is dying alot, while pally swoops in like superman and tanks it without a problem, personally I see that as a problem.

Very old news. We've dealt with it for over half a year.

Im behind in times I guess -- I keep to myself and usually am not on forums.

Bump

Retiring warriors is not a solution you Warrior hatin BL ---> Yeah You Soul  :D

And this:

Wait lemme get this straight...

Everyone hopped on the warrior train and gave others hell for not rolling warriors, and now warriors aren't god and people are upset?

I win. I will sit high on my SK throne and feel superior until I too am knocked from the throne.

Seriously, if warriors are going to be set as the godmode tanks, I don't want to see their DPS be competitive. In my flawed opinion, you get tankmode or dps. Not both.

So far I can see two very nice defensive cooldowns (Stonewall and 4.0). SK gets...none, Paladin gets t3(4?) castable Stonewall of a lesser effect.

Also, isn't warrior hp higher than SK or Paladin?

Obviously I am being a bit trollish but also curious on how higher hp and 2 Stonewalls is failing. Maybe turning a single 1h in for a shield might be the solution. Gives the mitigation needed, cuts down on attacks made per minute, and keep dps to acceptable level.

Just my arrogant thoughts.

-Hate

These are why Hunter neglects reading these posts, it's not about your class is better then mine.. Hell we just had a 5.0 Enchanter pulling in T6 for us!?

This will not make it GOD mode. And also this will lower thier DPS a lot What do you think the Melee is or adds up DPS comes from AUGS period. Did you even read what Brokyn wrote?



If you keep what we got now, 46k DPS with 4 VIs.. .. .. wow. or 34k with angers. No one is asking for a dps bump hell make DPS ZERO for better tanking.

Once more HPs Do not solve the mitigation issues players are having T5 and up..  We are not talking about anything really more then that.

But I'm off this reply cause I'm already doing the same thing trolling, and Brokyn asked for productive discussion

Most of the disparity between knight classes and warriors comes in at T5 and above. Unless you have experience in these zones you probably wont have noticed anything.

Hello ! i'm playing a warrior as main till i'm on ez ,i don't really know about game mechanics past T4 but after reading a lot of posts i'm a bit confused :war do have an AA that makes secondary weapon impossible to ripostes right ? (or maybe it is broken) ?
War weapons do have a slower attack rate then knights or very similar .. so why should they take more ripostes ? flurry ? if someone could answer plz

But is not the goal of original post so here's my 2 coppers suggestion: why don't allow warriors do raise their defense skill higher for exemple something like a mod skill def on epics past 4.0 or so.

Minimum delay with all haste is 10. With a UC any toon with a 3.0 is at minimum delay. If it is possible to add defense to an item that would be great but adding more ac is pointless because there is a soft cap on ac. The simplest solution would be to just allow the 1hs to be changed to a 2hs with bumped up stats.

A few things...

1 - not only T6 ready people want Warrior to be useful, so the solution doesn't have to be aimed at T6 ready players only. End game chars are fun, but majority of people on the server are not T6 and will never be.

2 - if you don't want to die from riposts - use 1HS and a shield.  Adapting strategy to content is nothing new.

3 - what about some "absorb damage" type of effect on the epics to help with riposts coming back? 150K absorb damage on the 5.0?

A.) Shield's in this game aren't up to par to the 2nd epic in hand. Especially agro wise... trying to keep agro off highly aug'd toons with one epic seems pretty rough.

B.) An absorb isn't what's really needed, 150k is less than 1 hit and that's pretty much just like adding more HPs that are dispensable

Maybe I should be a little bit more clear with what I mean by this statement. Before T5 your warrior is better at tanking than paladins or sk. If you have not experienced T5 or T6 then you won't know what the big deal is about knights over warriors.

Wearing a shield on my warrior means my monk, or my paladin, or my bard will tank. Aside from that the game dynamics are not currently set up to give warriors the same benefits as knights with shields. The only thing I shield would be is extra hitpoints.

I have seen warriors with 400k hp die in one combat round in T5. This can and does happen at the beginning of the fight, in the middle of the fight, or at the end of the fight. The absorb damage effect would have to be so high and so frequent to be effective that it would be game breaking.

EQ Live did something with the shield block AA for warriors that where every warrior on live, now, raid tank or just group tank, uses 1h plus a shield.

Maybe if this were able to be done the issue of losing aggro to DPS would be to add additional hate to augments that can be put into 1hs or maybe make a jolt-like effect similar to what rangers have on an augment for DPS to keep aggro down.

I am not sure adding aa's to a class is possible unless you get into messing with the core mechanics of the game. There are already hate augs in the game.

Honestly, I think the easiest solution by far is to make it so the warrior can get a 2hs starting at 4.0 (mainly because if you have a 3.0 or 3.5 -- your not in T5). That by far is the best solution for now -- see how it works from there ; alot of good ideas given but that could take alot of time and I think just a quick fix to see how it works is making it so a warrior can convert their 4.0 from 1hs to 2hs.

Well yeah.... But you can add MORE hate to the augs to increase aggro. Just saying.. If you lose a 1hs cause of a shield, it wouldn't hurt to add more anger to an aug.

True you could add more hate to the augs. Right now as it sits hate tends to roll over after about 40 seconds of continuous fighting with a warrior. Add more hate and the solution creates another issue. But a really cool idea would be to give the option of turning 1hs into 2hs. Really surprised no one has suggested it.

+ 1

Add a big ol hate whacking 2h stick for the warrior to Merchant standing in T5

.... Page 3... and all... I'm sure Xiggie is Yanking our legs.. or his alternate personality has taken over.. ( I know he wanted to point it has been suggested )

Then it must be settled. 2h is the one way to fix it. No one else need post. /smirk

You dont need 2 epics to keep agro. You however get the joy of clicking the shit out of your 3.0.
Shield wouldnt be so bad if you didnt have to give up so many hp but I keep a shield on my warrior, wonder if I can aug it and shield bash proc.

I would love to see a 2HS start at 3.0.  I know it really shows for all the "end game" players, but you guys are not the only ones effected.  Currently in T3, everytime I kill The Faceless, my Warrior will die 3-10 times, leaving my Ranger to tank named and adds.  After 25+ kills, I have never lost my Ranger 1 single time.  Warrior is almost fully T4 geared and is 4.0, yet he cannot survive just the named by themselves, but my Ranger has no problem tanking named + 2 adds.  It's getting really old rezzing my War every minute or 2 when he is already geared above the content I'm killing.

Hey Dethundrel do you have a Pally?  Cleric?  With a pally/cleric or pally/pally with good orc charm you shouldn't have a problem keeping warrior up.

I suppose I WILL post one more time on this thread. :)

I will note that I've noticed a big difference in content prior to T5... Some of you say it's only a problem passed T4, but I disagree completely.. Had my warrior tanking shadow with 180k HP and would still get killed every now and again... Rolled an SK and tanked it with 112k HP multiple times and never died. Same group set up both times except ditched the warrior for the SK.

I run Pal/Pal for healing, oracle 37 and oracle 24, both 4.0. They have no problem keeping my ranger alive, but the warrior still eats it. Warrior is about 40k more HP than ranger. Even when the warrior crashes from dieing, ranger has no problem tanking named an adds for as long as it takes to log warrior back in.
Just as luca posted, I've went to chase shadow a few times, and my warrior died multiple times, leaving the ranger as tank once again. And as usuall, never had the ranger go down.

Wanted to inject that I've started giving all upgrades to my rogue over my warrior.
(1) Went dps on war and if I dont click 3.0 enough rogue jacks agro
(2) Warrior dies to the RNG dps spike, rogue takes over as tank due to massive agro
(3) Rogue tanks better then warrior

Tossing another idea out there...

How about a Stonewall "spell" akin to the Kaldar's Helping Hand that Pallies have.  The marked difference would be that instead of using your mana pool, it could use your Stamina (Endurance) pool...  Balancing would need to be done to figure out how much Stam it would use per tick, and might have to add some Stam regen to the UC??

It would mean that the more Stamina and Stamina regen you have (ie higher tiered gear) the more the duration of your Stonewall...

Just a thought.

P.S.  It's odd to me to hear the last couple of posters claiming that their chain classes are out tanking better geared Warriors...  Something seriously wrong there.  Do you have all your defensive AA on the War?  Are you using Abilities?  Also, to the person saying their war can't hold aggro from their rogue.  You need to try harder with the warrior...  No way a war can't hold aggro at any stage in progression on EZ

I openly state I went IS aug on the warrior so that is a valid reason for lossing agro *IF* I dont click my 3.0 enough.
Its part of the group make up and I expect my rogue to steal agro here and there for a second or two.
I've been around for awhile, pretty sure I know how to play the warrior so its not a lack of knowledge on what disc to use.
Just now in abyss public my warrior got killed in one round 3x in a row but stuff only mildly hurt the paladins and did slightly more to the rogue.
(345khp vs 241khp)

I do like your idea of another defense disc using endurance instead of mana.
Thats one of the better ideas so far.
Maybe replace the next to useless t3/t4 "spell" with that.

The only time a dps class will pull off your warrior is when the aggro table reset due to the warrior having so much.

+1 on the 2hs, 4 aug slots, worn mitigation starting with the 3.0. This really is the best overall solution, and is the result of this being in discussion for months in different threads.

Endurance is broke too I have zero hours on end


2 handed sword is probably best option with a damage reduction...not a dps wep just hold aggro and tank period

Warrior will also lose aggro every 30 to 40be secs no matter what you are smasshing do to hate reset or negative hate whatever you call it... ya my monk tanks better then main tank most of time too

Probably never going to happen though.

bump


(cross fingers)

Something is wrong there.. You have 100k more HP than my paladin, and I can tank nameds in Abyss with no problems.

If your warriors keep dropping and you don't wipe to the mob, just battle rez.  Keeps things interesting.  If all characters are god mode the game is boring as shit.  I'm not in T5, but I don't seem to have any problems pre-T5, and not a single one of my characters has a UC.  I run war, sk, pal, cle, rng, mnk and they all have less than remarkable gear.. 

I know what I just said adds nothing constructive to the thread, but whatever.  Then again I wouldn't some gnarly 2 handed hammer or something for Warriors! :)

Right now there is no good reason to have a warrior in your group. They should be the best tanks in the game. I believe that easily says something needs to be done with them. Asking for a 2h wep for your warrior is not asking for god mode.

how about hp pool but more dmg reduction?

-facepalm- increasing the HPS on a warrior wont do anything, my warrior has about 300k hp -- my pally has 232k hp -- and in T5 -- Pally almost never bites the dust -- warrior bites the dust in the first round of combat. This is getting off topic alot, I wish hunter could just goof around with the 2hs idea

yeah, worse thing is can just delete it if doesn't work or leave it shrug

Yea i know. Had some good laughs with some guys over this. I'm trucking on and not to concerned with Abyss, just sucks that the pets and epics and just about everything else shares the same recast timer.
349 vs 310 now so less of a gap between war and paladin but the warrior still eats dirt faster then shit. I put on a shield to see if it was due to riposte but saw no improvement so went back to weapons.
From what I've been told about T6 this will be a serious issue for my group, guess I might need to go full IS6 and start tanking with the paladins.

Well, I'm hopeful Hunter will look into this more this weekend if he has time, all those driving Hours on the road with Ice and what not has to be tiring though.

There is hope though  ;D Just roll 4 enchanters and 2 druids...

5 chanters and 1 druid, you don't want TOO much dps, else warriors will get upset.
 :o or 3X3 for the win

yeah, you're right sorry bout that

Yeah , that's how I look at it. He could be busy - but even if the given scenario doesn't work , doesn't hurt to try. Could just be an option for warriors and he wouldn't have to take it out or anything, could honestly tweak it from there on if he so pleased.

Top of my list with new spells for Epics. Might trade DPS for Stonewalls, by choice of 2hs.

I dont think words could quite express how happy you have made me by finally posting on here Hunter!

(http://supportyourlocalgunfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/quagmire.jpg)

That sums it up fugi :P

+ 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1975/113/38/69000706896/a69000706896_1352254_562280.jpg)



^^-- All warriors on the server

Is that stiffler? Seems familiar.

I thought that at first, but found out later on he wasnt.

Need to experiment and find out which melee mitigation stacks with each other so I don't make in invincible warrior by accident.

Does stone monster familiar buff (melee mitigation) stack with either the Warriors AA Stonewall or possibly the Clerics buff for Stonewall? Or is it like haste where the highest value is the one that takes effect?

Ultimately I'll have to try it out myself before releasing it when I make it. But some quick advice or answers will help me to get this out the door quicker and hopefully before my vacation in less than 2 weeks from now.

Might just make an offhand shield with higher stonewall than the Warriors AA ability, then start adding 3-5% more per Epic but would eventually cap some where.

If a warrior gives up some of his procing by using a shield, how do they maintain aggro? What is the best way to hold aggro on this server? Would a warrior holding a shield be able to hold aggro from a Monk or Ranger?

On second thought, I might make a slow 2-handed weapon for stonewall to help with mobs hitting back. Would need to do less damage than regular epics, probably by having less augs total wielded.

And FYI I haven't read all 5 pages yet, been busy at work all week.

If you want, I could get all the main points together and make them into 1 post?

Speed about same as Knight Classes with same 3-4 aug slots to add the anger augs

Just restrict it to anger augs

This will lower DPS but allow Tanking (not like DPS is big with angers anyway)

Will need to add some form of scaling Damage reduction on it from @ least 4.0 upward. I can tell you now you will not even get close to making a freaking God tank even with 20% reduction will still need clerics and pallys to stay alive.

Actually Hunter, the person who made this post has been updating his original post with the input from other players so its all there in one big pile for the most part.

Just read it.

Thanks.

Anytime, hope you feel better. Flu has hit me hard so im feeling just as shitty :/

I forgot that I added a clickie stonewall to Warrior Epics already, but seems that it last for 3 minutes, recast time of 10.5 minutes?

The 3.5 has a reduction of 35% and the 4.0+ all have reduction of 45%.

I'm probably going to make this a worn effect instead starting at Epic 4.0+ for 2hs alternate weapon.

The AA Stonewall as someone posted would probably be the emergency thing for more reduction.

I'll remove the movement reduction in the worn effect version.

May have to reboot a few times today testing it out.

Hunter

You, sir, rock!

+1

:D

 :o

You missed a few zeros , Strix.

There was a worry that I might nerf the Stone Monster Pet due to stacking, but I tried to make the clickie epic at a value that would be acceptable OP without Invincible.

Enjoy!

Cant complain , it works well -- Just got my 4.5 2hs on warrior so alls well :)
Was hoping graphics on 4.5 and 5.0 would be different from the 4.0 but oh well, still overall the best change for warriors :D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;

lol :D

Just, you know, throwin' this out there.....

(http://everquest.allakhazam.com/equipment/rpics2/fabled_sword_of_truth.jpg)

I think you're missing the point...

Not at all. Simply suggesting a graphic.

Why, when there are tons of graphics, would we use the graphic of an SK 3.0?

and to make it even better, for most people who use the fully functional UF client -- the sk 3.0/3.5 graphic doesn't even show up for them.

Really?  Thats strange... I had an SK that went to 4.0 and never had any issues with graphics. Always ran UF from day 1 on EZ.

I never realized SK 3.0 had that graphic. Guess I can't see them like the above posts mention. Oh well.

3.0 and 3.5 do not show up, 4.0 does.