EZ Server

Trying to brain storm the future of Epic Weapons 8.0+ starting in ToV.

I could continue the course of regular epics and/or epic augs from T7 Epic 7.0's, or make new rare drop multiclass uber weapons that drop in T7+.

...

A new idea I'm thinking about is trading in your Epic 7.0's for new multiclass weapon in T8 ToV that will have 5 augment slots. Paladin and SK would get the same 2hs, Warriors, Rangers, and Bards would get the same 1hs, casters would get the same 2hb and/or dagger, Monks and Beastlords would get 1hb, etc.

These new weapons would have 5 augment slots, each allowing different type of augment that can be leveled or ranked up just like the Materia in Final Fantasy 7. Only one of the augment slots would be proc, the rest would be other stuff that you can select to specialize your character, to have more mana or hp, more DPS or more Healing, etc. This would make the weapons more unique to the class etc. Would go something similar to this (different slot numbers to be determined though):

Slot 1: Proc Augs
Slot 2: Focus Effect
Slot 3: Worn Effect
Slot 4: Click Effect
Slot 5: Stats (HP, Mana, AC, Resist)

So you could choose which area to rank up to specialize.

Those special Augments would probably start becoming available in T8 ToV along with the weapons. The Augments would probably use AA points to level up.

Maybe Slot 5 would be all stats (HP, Mana, Stats, Resist, Heroics, etc) instead of just one stat, so the original weapon will be blank except for the damage that increases every tier.

Reason we don't have Epic 8.0+ yet is just time consuming, to clone all the Epics and Epic Augs, and make all the code for Epic Vendor to trade them in for the upgrade, etc.

The new way proposed would take some time to get started, but then every tier would easily have a new set of weapons real fast since just need to make maybe 5 or 6 weapons per tier for upgrade, as the augments with aa rank up is already done.

Might limit the augments to 5 or 10 ranks per tier each as a cap, so for example in T8 ToV could only rank each augment up to rank 10, then in T9 could continue to rank them up to rank 20, etc. Would prevent anyone from getting insane HP or DPS from focusing on just 1 augment rather than balancing the leveling across all 5.

I realize lots of people doing UW's now but we still have a lot of dual wielders out there, and many times just the main tank has UW so the rest of the crew needs some update which there isn't much weapon update right now in T8 or T9, just strike Augs that give higher proc DPS.

Any feedback and ideas welcome.

Thanks

If you did 10 ranks starting in ToV I would ask that the aa req be reasonable considering this would mainly be used by peoples alts/support classes over their main and at this tier most people are 2-3 groups and raid aa sucks even though it has been boosted a lot in the last year.
It does sound like a good idea.

I think if this goes through, raid exp would need a boost, maybe in t8+ zones where this is implemented.

Right now you really only have to worry about exping your tank for RoA etc, if that shifts to having to exp all your army, something will need to give a boost to that enterprise. In my opinion.

I suggested this a while back. Read through it to fully understand what I'm aiming for with it. Once you've read it through, then crucify/support it.

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With T8 (and hopefully retro-actively and in the future), let's go back to EQ-like setup. Let's get away from the standard xerox'ed epics and let's make choices on what we'd like to use. I am suggesting that we keep the class defining proc/click/etc on the epic aug, but leave the stats to the weapon. With T7, we saw something similar...but not really. We had different weapon appearances that were still the same xerox'ed epic from the previous tiers. I am suggesting that each new tier has a "themed" set of weapons, which may not be the same as the previous tier. In example: tier 9 may not have daggers, but spears instead. T10 may REALLY like 2h weapons in numerous forms (2h monk staves, caster staves, 2h axes, 2h swords, etc). This adds some diversity in stats (and visual diversity).

Disclaimer: Yes, I know the 9023587259 of you warriors with UWs won't care. I'm not counting you because you're all bastards. There, I said it.

EDIT: Actually, you might care as with this system you could place your epic aug in the UW and still keep the warrior goodness without needing to lug around extra epics.

Below are some of the weapons I've written to possibly work with mostly final effects:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_assault_blade_zpse89858ee.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_bow_of_punishment_zpsf9341acc.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_destroyer_zps44abd801.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_heartstinger_zps17ca8054.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_ice_wall_zps314d599b.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_idol_of_healing_boon_zps6384b96e.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_mace_of_wisdom_zps55a40351.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_staff_of_intelligence_zpsde6a8593.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_sword_of_parrying_zps30d7ae21.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/crystalline_wand_of_presence_zpsf8e2a866.png)



(continued into next post...)

(continued from above...)

The Augs in a semi-complete form. Some things like the zerk 1h and the ranger blade can likely be safely dropped.

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/bard_8_zps31d74a1e.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/beast_8_zps26275c58.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/cleric_8_zpse867d6e5.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/druid_8_zpsb4fdc7d5.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/enc_8_zpsa70091cd.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/mage_8_zpsb0f961d9.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/monk_8_zps49863628.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/nec_8_zps5f643e1b.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/pal_8_1h_zps28d814b4.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/pal_8_2h_zps5b748eec.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/ranger_8_1h_zpsaf802c59.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/ranger_8_bow_zps1bacc855.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/rogue_8_zps3ebef440.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/shaman_8_zps8ffcd2d6.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/sk_8_1h_zps39d3a312.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/sk_8_2h_zpsb74385a4.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/war_8_1h_zpsad7e27be.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/war_8_2h_zps7d1014b4.png)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x206/Bobtheamerican/T8%20Stuff/wiz_8_zps4adfd1a3.png)




-Hate

I really like this idea Hunter.  Just like your Spirit of Ninja idea, it is excellent out of the box (no tweaking required).    The multi-class weapon with specialty augs would be fun and allow us to improve our toons each tier or with time (if you go the AA route).    We always have room to improve our dps and support classes.   Heck we spend millions upon millions of plat on our dps to reduce clear times by a couple minutes.  Maximum ROI!

I vote a big NO on tier themed weapons though, doesn't make sense and will require a heck of a lot of testing to ensure we do not get another Warriors Way fiasco.   The multi-class weapon is an awesome idea and will allow toons to upgrade after every tier vice having to wait for the "tier theme" that provides them an upgrade. 

As a caveat, all of the progressing players on EZ, especially the players that are in the top tiers, follow the standard "EQ-Like"  setups, that means Main Tank, DPS and Healing.   This is mmorpg 101 and has been the model for every mmorpg I've ever played (been playing since 99).    You could look at top guilds in the history of mmorpgs and check out their model,  great tank, good heals, good dps.   

EZ is awesome right now, thanks for the effort Hunter.   

Danke,

Peign

Increase the heroic stats above "total joke, dont die laughing" levels for starters. Otherwise I'm sure it looks good.

I really like Hate's idea. I love diversity as far as weapon looks instead of the same ol weapon model. I get really excited knowing a new model is next tier. I would make 1 small request, how bout some 1 handed axes !   

If I could suggest one thing it would be the removal of aoe dmg epic 8 up.

Honestly this seems like a lot of extra time and work to get items and augments set up, and I don't quite see where there a there is any real benefit for players. I'd prefer sticking to the epic set up that previously existed and if anything, try to implement unique abilities to classes that are currently in need of a boost to benefit players that use a balance of toons beyond what is already in place.

marxist, it is a bit to setup but I've already done it. Hunter was looking for a way out of the epics system. They aren't epic and are mandatory progression pieces. On top of it, it's a good bit of work to copy/paste/edit per tier.


On zerks or all aoe damage?


That's doable ;-D



Yeah, I know they're low. I was considering 10% of all epic weapon/armor stats to be added as heroics so the gear would actually stack up in a progressive, useful manner instead of hilariously large leaps like the current system. :-)

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Good feedback so far. Keep it coming on mine, Hunter's, or maybe your own pitch. :-D


-Hate

WOW Hate that was defiantly a crap load of work.
Nicely done Mate.
I'm sure a little tweaking will be needed but it looks like you've covered most all bases.

Got my +1 Hate


Hopefully with that setup EZ will no longer be "Tank with War or find another server."

I know it's "doable" but it's a night and day difference and some of us would love a choice in the upper tiers
 

Rogue dagger with backstab dmg on it that actually improves some.
That shit has been the same 250 value since 4.0.

I'm against there being a ranged item with the money and time spent on sceptres. Also thinking the healing buff on druid/shaman item is too high.

Bring in the ranged items, the server needs to progress past a single ranged item.

Increase the stats on the scepter, reasons given by Marxist

I agree. Options are nice to have.

^ I agree, better idea.

Clerics get 400%, druid/shaman are stuck at 100%. 200-250% is reasonable replacement for Focus of Healing for them.


That's the point of something like this. T8 may have something amazing that you prefer to keep until T10. T9 may have a better replacement. With uneven and scattered drops, the actual items chosen/used can vary from tier to tier. I like options. Right now, the option is KEEP GRINDING.




-Hate

Change Enchanter epic from a pet to an uber group buff: Maybe vampiric thunder/vampiric haste/masked strength and KOE combined... perhaps t8 +?

Sweetchuck will thank you

Pet is broken due to source at the moment, but whatever. The pet is rather fun and fairly powerful when not broken.

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Any other comments/complaints about the epics suggested? Per a discussion with Blurring, I did miss a few class combinations (such as monk/bst 1h and 2hb item).




-Hate

Just so much buffing required in t9.. Pets are fun, but having to rebuff all the time single target is not.  I was just thinking that enchanter with über buff would be more like how they were in live.

Along the line of what I am quoting here. Would be something to consider doing what a few other custom servers have done. Merge buffs together.
So instead of having to cast 2 or 3 single/group buffs we cast one that has all the effects on it. Increase the mana cost and adjust cast/recast timers to be balanced.
That would help with rebuffing for everyone, melee/casters/pets.

Considering how much work it could be, I would volunteer to assist with it if it is decided to be a valid option and hate wants the help.

We're straying a bit from the intended topic. It is possible to allow something like this to be researched or unlocked, but it belongs in another topic.  I could literally write up the spells to do it in under 10 minutes. Just...again...off topic. :-)


-Hate

New druid epic clicky effect. For realz !

I think both ideas posted by Hunter and Hateborne are great.

Ideally what I'd like to see is a combination of both ideas.

--Epic weapon drops follow Hateborne's idea where each tier sees 5-10~ different weapons/shields/range items drop, each usable by various classes.

--Aug slots work the way Hateborne has them laid out but in addition to these are extra aug slots where 1-all of Hunter's ranked augs would go.

I think this would allow for the greatest amount of customization and also randomness old-timey EQ fun. The weapon drops would be quite rare and as Hate described there would be many different upgrade routes to consider for each class. Especially as more tiers are released and the pool of weapons to choose from grows. At the same time players could also choose who they wanted to spend extra time on specifically to level up the ranked augs for, deciding what would best complement the weapon choices they had made and their overall strategy.


Whichever way it ends up going I think of course the class specific augs/effects are a must. Here are my thoughts on the class specific upgrades for T8 proposed by Hateborne:

[Bard]
Any reason the Mana regen component sees no increase? 6.0 -> 7.0 went from 20k to 24k, so 28k seems logical for T8.

[Cleric]
Vivificate of the Masses III is a base improvement of 20k over vII which I believe represents an increase in actual heal by 260k (given UC2 and Amplify Healing). This seems reasonable given the amazing heal spell that drops in T8 already.

[Paladin]
I think the group heal component of paladin's needs to be seriously looked at for T8 and T9. The Masses III upgrade I think is fine, but the combat heal proc has fallen way behind. HP values have exploded and npc damage has continued to reflect that, but paladin's healing upgrades have not. In addition to this the delay cap significantly lowered the number of heal procs going off, and I don't think the proc was ever upgraded to make up for that.

The heal proc base upgrade for T7 -> T8 is  2160 HP's. With UC2 and Focus of Healing this means an upgrade of 21,600 HP's. The total proc is a 93.6K heal. Tanks in these tiers are typically pushing multi million HP's so we are talking about a 2-5% heal that procs much slower than ever before. For me in T9 the pally would have to proc more than 10 times with the slow delay to heal just ONE hit from a trash mob; the heal is essentially useless.

I'm not sure if this is the direction the class is intended to go in, and if it is, I can certainly understand that. All the new healing provided by druids, shamans, rangers, misc. runes, and cleric upgrades are awesome and I would prefer to have those if it came down to it. But to me the paladin's role as a healer is still far below where I believe it should be. If the epic heal will stay as proposed I ask that you consider a major increase in their heal spells (in whichever tier they start dropping upgrades again).

(Another thing I just noticed, the 2H aug still has the 7.0 combat heal proc attached, hoping this is an oversight and it's meant to have the same combat heal as 1HS aug. If not, what I said earlier x2, hehe)

[Ranger]
1hs Aug has no effect and I see the 7.0 still has the 6.0 pet as effect. Are we scrapping ranger pets here?

[Shaman]
I love combat shaman with vicious disempower and am very happy to see any upgrade to this component! :D

On a similar note to paladin heals however, I think the HP buff of the shaman epics have failed to respond to the exploding HP/dmg rates. The shaman epic buff used to be just that, epic, but that hasn't been the case for some time. On your typical tanks in this tier it represents a 3-6% increase in hit points. Not even a single extra hit from a trash mob in many cases. I would love to see this value doubled or even tripled from the proposed value of 125K.

[Shadowknight]
The DT click needs to be much higher in my opinion.

190,000 damage base with a UC2 becomes 950,000 damage every minute. Or 15.8K extra DPS assuming you can cast it every minute. 15k DPS is what my warrior parsed at using anger 4 augs in HoH years ago, it's a trivial amount in T8.



Alright those are my initial thoughts, thanks for reading and hope they make sense. If these are way off just ignore them, any upgrade is a good upgrade! :)

The bards are screwy. I am going to revisit them eventually. Currently, it scales unnaturally. In example: Health (heal/dmg), Mana, and sometimes AC are multiplied by 62-63 times when using Epic 3.0+ and UCv1. Going to enforce some max_val limits to keep it in check.



Chunka had mentioned this same thing last night. He was making mention that it was due to nerfs, but I was of the mindset that the EXPLODING hp values.



I would like to get rid of the pet as it creates another thing to micromanage and I was not found of a multi-million hp pet that dies in two hits.



Noted, I'll look in to it for an appropriate value.




Paladins and SKs are being looked at currently.  Sit tight on that one. :-D




-Hate

I like the Aug idea.  Nothing better than crafting your own specific slant to the classes.  I like the custom weapon idea so every member of the class can have a varied appearance. 

To add my tuppence:

  These will become character defining weapons that will require many hours to improve and as such should not be relegated to rare drops.  While I do not mean everyone has one given to them at the front door I also don't want to wade through countless hours of grind on the epic dropping mob only to find another hand to hand weapon.  Some ideas to support that plan would be

  - Add a vanilla epic drop to Eashen (or Vulak if Eashen is deemed too fast)
  - An epic swap mob at zone in when you can turn the hand to hand into a useable weapon.
  - Add an Aug drop chance to each T8 named.  If there are 3 Aug slots per epic then 3 Aug drops per clear should be the chance. 

This way you have the weapon and a chance to Aug it, and start the build.  The roadblock becomes the leveling of the Augs, not the pursuit of the weapon or corresponding Augs.

One other idea that may have some play depending on live vs EMU code capabilities... Evolving item mechanics were coded many gens ago and seem to fit this current epic plan nicely. 

Thank you, B, for putting into numbers what those of us with pallies have already seen! This also matches a discussion Hate and I had the other day, regarding the "role" of the knight classes. Pallies in most groups were developed in that spot for ONE role: healer. Right now they are the lowest on the totem as far as healers, behind even a shaman. Its to the point that the character who pretty much was my main, Brickhouse, is almost never logged in.....I cant sacrifice the group slot on him, not when a cleric, druid or shaman does it so, so much better! And DPS? Even with UC and strike augs my pally cant out dps my druid, and the druid heals better overall.