EZ Server

Paladins have been weak since the very beginning when compared to other DPS classes. Should we give them a DPS Aug like the Anger Augs that Warriors Get? Or make a new one? Or a combo of both? This would allow Paladins to tank and DPS but Warriors would still have the edge with Stonewall and dual wield.

IMO, this is the way to go with paladins. Warriors would still be more defensive, and paladins could benefit in so many ways from an anger-like aug, possibly even more so than warriors (due to their spells.)

I'd say yes give them the aug, but give them 150% the effect from it. So I guess either: make a new aug or allow paladin epics to have 3 augs.

The reason being paladins only have one weapon slot, where as warriors have two.

They are gimped.
I say they should be less of a tank but = or + dps than a warrior.
Whatever dps you do, be sure to equalize with the SK's as they should parse about the same.

IMO, gime them their own augs, im sure you can tweek later if its an issue.

I disagree on DPS being equal or greater than a warrior, it's why they get spells also same goes for sk. They always have had less dps than a warrior traditionally, they get other benefits. Warrior should defend and dps better but has 0 spells. SK's + Pally's should defend and dps less but both have spells/pets.

Really, there are no "rules" for this game nor server. We can try anything Hunter wishes to implement.
My opinion, bump the crap out of their DPS until they are happy and tweak it. Seriously, do you have any IDEA how much pain Uxtalzon must have went though doing ROA100 on a gimped pally?
Warrior DPS on this server is through the roof compared to live and that goes outside of "tradition" so no reason why other classes cant obtain similar benefits.

Well lets put it this way if sk/pally out dps'd warriors why would you play a warrior? If I could get higher dps while healing/feign deathing etc why on earth would you play a warrior? As it sits now I'd guess a T4 Pally or T4 SK can out-tank a warrior now, ie live longer against a mob than any warrior can.

I voted for both, anger and custom aug for paladin. However, i dont think this will allow them to out DPS a war, nor so i think it should be made that way. The only way a paladin will be able to out dps a war with angers, is if Hunter made the new augs with a 3k proc on them, to counter wars being able to dual wield and have anger augs in them.

I think the new augs should be the same as war anger augs essentially, with a slightly higher proc. isntead of 1.5k single DD, a 1.75k or 2k. instead of 1k AoE, 1.5k AoE.

2 augs slots on paladin epic x 1 epic = 2 augs. 2 augs doing 2k DD or 1.5k AoE dmg = 4k DD and 3k AoE (without charm mods ).

2 augs slots on war epic x 2 epic = 4 augs. 2 augs doing 1.5k DD or 1k AoE = 6k DD dmg and 4k AoE dmg (without charm mods)

think its pretty fair that way. because as Crab said, at least SK's are able to survive better than a war high end due to lifetap procs. Im not sure about paladin, have to take his word for it

Well I am assuming that a Pally/SK cannot outank a warrior currently as you mentioned since warriors get better tanking gear, hp, discs etc.

Then try it with less DPS, but at least give them something. Theyve been gimped forever.

I still vote all mobs bodytype 3, But anything at this point would be a benefit. No idea on dps on SK but if they lack as much as Paladin except have survivability . /shrug

Running a high fever so I'll try to make this a quick post and try to keep it to the point. lol

I think a simple solution is to add a new augment to the game for all melee to use. Warriors have Anger 4 and 5 for both augment slots, all other classes just have the mossy tundra stone (or sharpening stone of the sky for 2H) while the other slot is fitted with a weak lifetap.

I'd suggest an all/all aug that just adds damage to a weapon that compliments the mossy tundra stone. Casters wouldn't care for it because it just adds melee damage, warriors wouldn't care because they have better augs, but all other melee would love it to replace the cheap lifetap.

There's one like it already, sort of. LDoN 6, Obsidian Shard or something (red gem doohicky). Just make versions III, IV, and V of it.

A paladin only aug would just cause expectations for classes to get their own.

Oh, and Secrets is supercute. :3

Bump.

Get out there and Vote!

Paladin's can easily benefit from a decent aug as well as other classes. It wouldn't take much but a little number crunching to add effects for each class.

Rogue - BS Mod + Jolt + DD
Pal - Group Heal DD mod (small) plus Anger/DD
Sk - Self Heal DD mod (600-800hp) plus Anger/DD
Beast - Mod Cold Nukes, DD/Aug
Zerk - 35%ish Flat-line Damage Mod to start considering 2H DMG cap coming shortly and lack of damage  + Jolt
Monk - Fly Kick Mod + Jolt + DD
Bard - DD + Jolt + Nuke Mods
Ranger - DD + Jolt + Fire Nuke Mods

Once again numbers would have to be played with for a while, but that would kind of even things out, just have to punch in the right numbers.

Any character in melee range doing T3/4 bosses requires two clerics in group to keep up with heals.  Lets say that Rangers are doing 1000 DPS for the duration of a fight.  A Ranger group requires 1 cleric.  Group looks something like this: Ranger, Ranger, Ranger, Ranger, Bard, Cleric.  Melee DPS group looks something like this: Zerker, Rogue, Monk, Bard, Cleric, Cleric.

The Ranger group is doing 4k DPS.  Even bringing Zerkers, Rogues and Monks up to 1k DPS isn't enough as it doesn't account for the DPS lost (as a group) because of the need for an extra cleric in that group.  Here is what I propose to fix Paladins and SKs.

Anger V aug + SK/Pal specific metal (PoD, used in T2 armor combines) = Augment that does a modest group heal.  Not so that they are able to fully replace a Cleric in a group, but so that a Melee DPS group with a Cleric and Paladin OR SK becomes viable.  This gives a role to two classes and makes three others worth bringing to a raid.

Noob, you only got 24 post.

SK definatly needs some sort of boost. Single target we are awsome but with adds we suck. My SK is 90k hps and still dies faster than a 60khp warr when adds are included. As most T2 events have adds it makes for a hard slog. When boxing I have to cycle through adds change targets on alts and so on. A likwise geared Warr just whacks em silly.
This goes also for LDON to get charms for alts, an equivelant warr to my gear can whipe the floor out while I am doing em a few at a time.

We do get the heal bonuses which are awsome but easily replaced by a cleric boxed.

You only have to look at any highend SK on this server, most have a warr also and it is for this reason. I myself started a warr this last week and got him 3.0 to keep up with the content and I really didnt want to play 2 tanks, but it looks as though its the only way.


I am not saying give SKs and pallys equivelant augs to warrior but something to make them a viable option over warrior would help.

Maybe give the SK a similar proc that the Necor pet has, that procs a damage on the mobs that does a group heal to the players group?

For Paladin, I could give a group heal proc, but that won't help with DPS.

SK and Paladins will definately get something, cause I'd like to see more of them.

I am not entirely sure SKs need tweaking. They should do completely insane DPS/self-healing with lifetap procs that they get. Perhaps an unresistable proc for the SK itself like its other spells in that same line would put them on par with other tanks. Make it half the base damage of the anger aug if anything though, cause that's an insane amount of healing.

For paladins, you use the excuse that whatever "divine being" blesses that aug, smiting foes down causing holy type dmg and also healing group. That way you can dps and heal too....

A good idea about the Dmg + Group heal aug, i know the 3.0 has the group heal effect. Im not sure how it holds up tier 3+ atm. It cant be too much, seems like a minor heal at that stage of the game.

As far as Shadowknight go, i dont know much about them, but if they need a dps boost as well. Might wanna look into it. But paladin suffer so much they will fall asleep before half the shit they kill is dead alone.

obviously with all this discussion, we have to keep in mind that if knights end up with augs that dmg + group heal... dmg will be significantly lower than war augs. In case anyone was thinking "wow we'll have a 2k AoE nuke with group heal aug, woo!' or anything

The thing is Hunter wants to make them "wanted to be played".

What better way than to make them have some significant powerful upgrade that makes them - not only viable - but sought after in the endgame.

Massive DPS output upgrade, comparable to warriors, not necessarily equal AND significant group healing ability would certainly do that.

Hunter said he wants to see more of them, not see everyone playing them and there is a difference :)

Right.  I didn't mean to make them like warriors are now.  That's why i said comparable to warriors, not necessarily equal . Just more likeable and wanted in the endgame.

These augs shouldn't be taking away what warriors have currently, just bringing knights up closer to where they should be.

I dont want to have everyone dropping warriors because "Paladins/ SK are the OP tank now. Warriors are gimp" or something like that

Sk/Pally should just be made on-par with Warriors. I think the last thing folks would do is quit a warrior cause sk/pally got a boost. At the moment there really is only one choice for a tank and it should be three. That coming from a guy who loves his SK but deep down wishes it was a warr.

i'm a paladin at heart. and i guess thinking about it, knights were made originally as an off tank/ supplemental tank. Doesn't mean EZ cant put a different spin on them.

Bard tank! gogo

3.0 SK + 3.0 RNG + 3.0 RNG = 3man PoD T1 named cause SK 3.0 proc sexy lifetap

WAR + WAR + CLR + CLR = 4man EZ Server cause its fucking OP

PAL..... = lawl you fagsauce why would you play such a fucking loser class. Don't you know secretly Hunter hates you like the passion of the Christ....


/sarcasm off

really only paladins suck wang and need a boost + any half decent player can hold agro.

Here's to hoping that since Pallies are getting tweaked that SK's are next in line. I don't want to have to make another char.  :-\

I think that the only reason people role paladins nowadays is to get the AoE heals and the DD from their epics.

If I was hunter I would add an anger/damage aug. I wouldn't make it Overpowered but I would make it so you see more paladins then warriors.

I vote the 4th option.             

Pally aug only would be awesome. Anything that is class exclusive is good to lessen the item competition.

NO and hell no, my main is a paladin and in no way do i see us needing a anger aug or dps aug, we don't dps, we're flamin pallies- get over it.  Anger aug? wtf is wrong with you i can hold hate over lots, hell even over a warrior if i try  hard enough.

ok just my 2  cp

Lex

You posted in an old post before the paladin update.

i just got approved for forums, so leave me alone....

Old post is old, but anyways...

All a warrior has to do to steal agro from you is right click.  You have to actually cast something.

very true and if they have anger IV or lower there is no chance for me, ;p

i still lubz my pally tho

imo, wouldn't be such a big deal to make anger augs WAR, PAL, SHD usable. War's would still be superior w/ stonewall overall, but at least would be more viable to use other classes than be forced into one for the most important role.

Even if it was just the 4's only, I would be more than happy with that.

Sheesh right now Paladins are the single most powerful class on EZ, they are basically near unkillable.

They are added to almost every high end group. The best part is the more you have the more difficult they get to kill. A group of all warriors die very quickly, as does an all cleric group as an example, however put a group of Paladins together and they get even more effective than they are solo :) I'm truly not sure Paladin's need any more than they have, they have already "replaced" clerics if you have at least 2 of them in single grouping.

I wasn't remembering that I was in the Pally thread. I wouldn't mind the aug for SK's.

And I know what you mean for the Paladin over cleric. My wife mains a cleric (yes, it happens at times) and I made a paladin to mess around with. She has since made a paladin as well to group up and leave on autoattack for heals instead of her cleric. Even with only a 3.0, no oracle or anything, you crit heal a tad over 12k. Add another pally to the group and you get non stop 12k heals going off. I have to test out T2 mobs with my SK, but I bet we could do it fairly easily.

So a group of four paladins, one war and one bard....?

Im quite content with my paladin. Sure i maybe wouldnt mind my click on 3.0 changed to a spammable anger like war, but that's there thing, and the click on 3.0 may be somewhat useless but get enough sorcers it isnt as bad to click the 3.0 for added dps for sorcers.

Mainly paladin now a days in a boxing group are a healer and focusing on oracle's charms for the paladin, and that can be a little work but in the end the effort is worth it if you wanna keep from adding more clerics. We can be good tanks as well but after Kronos and above things can get a little bouncy in the HP department.

Just remember the cleric's heals are a for sure thing coming from a paladin you cannot always rely on the procs only. There will be long fights, and there will be patches of no heals.

very true friend and did a t3 boss last night, ofcoarse we lacked the dps but both of us held our own tanking it. Unfortunate for us the spell Divine Intervention and/or Death Pact is broken and hardly ever replenishes hp on death. So we ended up wiping but fought it for a good 30ish minutes.  Was very exciting, we did a whole 8% of the mobs hp in that time, one group- War, Pal, Rogue, Mnk, Clr x 2

fun fun :)

30mins of DPS with a full group did 8% life? Holy jeez.. dumb question, but they're all 3.0'd right?

Have to be to even get into T1 not even talking about T3 :)

why would you even waste the stones with that group setup?

They did more than 8% damage to the mob. In fact I would probably go so far as to say they probably did enough dmg to kill the mob once or even twice. Have to take into consideration that for 30 minutes the mob was regening.

Have to get a feel for the fight somehow.  Just like when Yellowbird offered up an MCP spawn a couple weeks ago.  Once you know what you are working with you can start to deal with how to approach it the second time.

You know technically you just need the flag not the weapon. Though it would be utterly retarded to not have the weapon lol  :D

hmm. interesting. if that big of a group did 8% life, probably wouldnt only need one more dps over 30 minutes to overcome the regen.

We attempted it because we never done it before. How else we gonna how t3 is?  We honestly didn't think we'd do so well on it.  It was a very good learning experience.

sorry lex.. i assumed somebody told you what to expect

minimum you need for a t3 boss is probably 2 full T2 with hp augs wars rotating stonewall.. depending on roa and charm of warriors you will need 2-3 full T2 clerics healing the warriors.. might need another warrior/paladin/sk in that group to kill the add that pops every 20-25%

other than that just need another dps group.. T2 rangers/monks
(don't have to be full T2)
i prefer rangers because they can be at max range and not need heals

fight should last about an hour.. 45 mins with 2 dps groups

good luck next time lex.. i hope you don't get silk lol

45 mins really?
i am not trying to be an ass but is that how long its takingn yall?

This gives me a shimmer of hope - I should be hitting T3 within a month or two and didnt look forward to hour long fights.

lol thx, well the good thing silk won't rot i have a few silk classes that are flagg'd :)

Yeah, if true, 45min-hr fight is absolutely rediculous

yea 45 mins if you are just breaking into t3
i did say minimum needed.. so i am assuming the dps groups aren't full t2

gnaughty... how long did it take on your first t3 boss?

Lol gnaughty was a part of the server first t3 kill in avalon.  We didnt even have full t2/augs.  Iirc tho lightbringer was prolly a 45/50 min kill.

Depending on your group setup:

1 group with at least 2 warriors cleric/pally will take about 30min (depends wich boss as well)
2 groups with lets say:
group1) war/war/war/cleric/pally/monk
group2) rang/rang/rang/rang/cleric/war

that will take your roughly 15min also depending on gear and epics off course.

Here i'm talking about a full 4.0 setup, count a couple minutes more with 3.0's

Hope this helps

Hmmm yeah it did take that long back then.  I guess I've forgotten how tough it was going to T3.  My 6 man group takes 10-15 min give or take if I am watching tv or talking to family and not paying attention, which causes a few toons to take a dirt nap.  That 6 man group is 4 warriors a paladin and one itty bitty clerix.

Is anything ever gonna come of this vote?  I made a couple extra pallys in hope we might see these new augs soon.  Would really like to see More Sk's and pallys tanking and doing decent dps rather then the "normal" cookie cutter groups thats required atm.

I want to do more than just be an afk healbot on my paladin.  I'd like to be able to tank and hold aggro effectively.  Seems like a waste to be grouped with warriors, have a ton of hp and full plate tanking class and never tank if grouped with a war.  Would be nice if the defensive discs didn't suck too, but it's part of the class I suppose.

Planning class balance (aka upgrades) this weekend, with hopefully little to no nerfs. Maybe give Anger Augs to Sk/Pal.

Would be nice to have some an option for tanking discs.  I dont want anything for a paladin like stonewall or anything to take away the warrior token, just something to make the tanking a bit more viable.  Thanks for all your hard work Hunter.

They get heals that warrior don't get + u think Paladin gets a small stonewall.

Guard of Righteousness is like a 10k rune I believe.  It isn't stonewall, but it might help you live until the next heal procs.  Having something that didn't absorb all damage but lasted a little longer would definitely help.

The ability to hold agro on multiple mobs is the only issue pally/SK has atm tanking.  Nothing should be able to replace or equal a warrior as a tank.  Bring the Sk/pally dps up to par with warrior and give the hybrids the ability to hold agro on multipe mobs. That would be a huge fix.  The augs are a great idea and I think and it can all be tweeked as needed.  Thanks again Hunter for hearing us out, I think we all wanna see more SK/Pally instead of mandatory warriors for both DPS and Tanks.  

Dread Gaze is an AOE aggro spell that gives 250k hate.  You can cast it every 2 seconds or so.  I'm not in end-game stuff, but I can hold aggro on everything using it in LDON and such.

correct

Dread Gaze works fine as I use SK for my main tank (Refuse to make warrior)

These are all good changes im +100 for.

Hunter, anger augs will work but I would like to see them as temporary. And later on add somewhat class specific. (Maybe archetype specific?) Maybe pally with a 500hp-5k (ranks) rune proc and a SK that procs an AOE lifetap DOT.

   Well if pallies and sk's get upgrades aka being able to use angery nerd augments i'd like to have the heal pallies have on my warrior epics please. Lets not forget that the Warrior has always been intended to be the MAIN TANK  and pallies/shadowknights have always been Main assist or back up tanks. Raid wise that is. That is all thank you for your time. Now that i read over this post more maybe its just people dont' know how to play a pally/sk not all but it seems like a few of them just depend on their gear to get them through not thinking about useing their various skills/spells. Sounds to me like people just want to put pally on auto attack kill all the mobs aoe and keep themselves fully healed lol that would be way to overpowered.






Cracken
~GL of Classic Composers

Anger Augs were added to Warriors but heals/taps were always part of being Sk/Pal.

You give Knights the ability to use Anger augs, im basically done on this server. Congrats on making the Paladin the most desired character to play. A weapon that procs heals, ability to cure, and now the DPS from the Anger augs, why would anyone want to possibly play a different class?

Everyone say we need to keep warriors on the top of the tanking list I agree. Why not make a Anger aug for a pally/SK but scale down the dmg say maybe 750 aoe. You dont want the pallys and sk in your group ripping mobs off when your not trying.

Having your tank use IV's and your DPS use Vs should be enough to solve this issue - no need to scale anything back.

I could be wrong? But if Dps use the V's and warriors use the IV then your dps would get chewed up by adds. The warriors use V's to help with dps yes but also to help pick up the adds correct?

Well, the main tank would use the IV's and any other warriors would be using V's, so knights shouldn't be getting chewed much at all. Thats assuming your talking about raids.  In a group setting, a warrior would most likely just use V's and tank all the trash.

My experience goes up to T2 as I have been hesistant to start the T3 grind.

With every boss except Kronos - adds come 1 at a time. I usually switch everyone - including my tank to the add to burn it down.

Even if there are multiple adds - then what Bezy said would work just as well. V's on everyone. I dont know the calculations involved but I would think you would get more procs from your Dual Weilding Warrior than your 1 Weapon Toting Knights.

Yes.. thats true 1 weapon < 2 weapons I didnt think of this =)

So, you threaten to rage quit cause Hunter is trying to scale other melee dps up somewhat in line with warrior DPS.  You offer up no other ideas on how to accomplish this.  I seriously doubt anyone will care if you quit when your only response to this is to nerd rage quit if something you don't like is about to happen .  Hunter seems to be pretty open to new ideas, so why don't you help create one instead of acting like a cry baby.

Yeah, people not realizing Sk/Pal with proc and other util swing only 1 sword.

People should be happy I am discussing instead of making hard changes and saying tough luck.

Warriors get dual wield and stonewall. I you want to quit, then I can help you and make sure there are no second thought by making it perm ban. Serious, won't get far with nerd rage quits, since I've already waved bye to whole guilds before. 

    ROFL let the ban hammer fall !!!! QQ'in should be a ban-able offense!




Cracken
~GL of Classic Composers

I say just let the knights use the augs. aggro and dps wise like everyone is saying saying as pld/sk only have one sword warriors will still out dps hold aggro and out tank any knight class. Firetoad seems to be in a bad mood today readin some of the posts today >< no offense.

I play Kinslayr (SHD) and only just started LDON. Got my hat handed to me so many times it wasn't funny. Made a HP battery (ClR) and when that wasn't enough, I made a war and that's my tank now. Would love my SHD to have the ability to tap more  self only  from procs while he's fighting. Maybe something for defense. WAR is half the AAs as the SHD but can take anything. Love my SHD, would love to 3 box with him as a viable alt tank. Can't wait to see what you decide. Great server!

You guys must be smoking crack. Paladins are not a dps class and making them do more dps further obsoletes actual dps classes. Honestly nerf paladins so that more of the actualy dps classes are viable. I.E. wizzy, chanter, monk.   Right now tha game state is getting bad. People just run around with warrior pally groups and you want to make the problem worse?????

so nerf pallys bc they arent dps class? umm ppl run around with warriors/pallys  bc warriors are the top dps and pallys heal.. Last time I checked in EQ warriors weren't dps class so im still stumped why you think pallys should be nerf'd lol

Zadar this is the second post from you wanting to nerf every class into oblivion what gives ?

You now want pallys dp nerfed, warrior dps nerfed, and pally proc heals not affected by the oracle charm.  Whats your ultimate agenda here ?

Sounds to me he should just go make his own server and make it how he wants it.... Last I check this is Hunters server.... He is going to do what he wants... Take it or leave it...

The ultimate agenda is to find a way to bring the other classes in line. It is a lot easier to do that by taking what is op and bringing it down a bit instead of finding ways to boost the other the other 12 classes. Warriors are not a dps class but yet are top tier dps. pally is not a dps class but people seem to think it needs to be. By following this logic then wizzards should be tanks and enchanters should be healers.   So I ask you where is the logic in adding dps to a pally? 

Let me ask you were the logic is in someone who is new to the server being able to tell us how the server should be?

So you are saying that just because I am new to this server  I can not present valuble logical opinions? Or that your opinion is holier than mine? Which is it?  Either way it is a nice way to try and insult my intelligence. Next time please just send me a pm for this biggot remark.

Zadar you seem to have this believe that this should be a live server and all classes should be as you expect them to be on live......

Sadly your missing the point of a "custom" emu server.  The classes that are powerful are powerful because Hunter (the guy that owns and runs and codes "HIS" server) wants it that way.

If you want a legit all classes like you want them and remeber them to be, please find a new emu server or pay sony 20 bucks and month to experience EQ like you want it.

Hey, lay off of Zadar!!!

He told me he was touched in his no-no zone by a Paladin when he was a kid.

NERF LoH! Nerf proc grp heals! Nerf DPS! Bring back the "holy" in this class!

(AKA - holy crap, this class sucks)


Don't change a darn thing, Hunter =) I lurve my pally

Insulting your intelligence? I think you did fine with that post on your own. But while we are at it, you're really sounding like an idiot. You are offering that your post is one of logic, yet you are basing that logic off of incomplete information. It is not that my opinion is holier than your it is that my opinion is more informed. You have no idea how the end middle early game on this server is played yet you come in here telling us how it should be.

As far as sending a pm, you posted your uninformed opinion on how this server should be on a public forum, I responded in kind.

I just love reading posts from Xig, Rostam, and Balthor.

Man that post feels like so long ago.

hahahahahahahahaha

Bastards, all of you.

Because, you know, enchanters are dps classes on every server, including the custom ones.

Wait, what?