Ultimate Weapon Discussion

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[Viciouss]

Will there be a modification to the UW questline with these nerfs?

Will the modifications done to T7 and T8 also reflect similar percentages in reduction?

[Raygan]

Going to go with my mother's advice, "If you cant say something nice....don't say anything at all."

[Expletus]

Not thrilled with those projected numbers with the amount of time it takes per tier.

Also the dmg on the bow is ridiculous compared to the other weapons.

I hope you scale the zones based on epic and not on uw cuz losing that amount of hp and dmg is a huge hit.

[obut]

I could see the changes working IF the recipe was changed.  Otherwise I don't see myself continuing this item.  Recipe I would suggest would be:

Weapon mold / Previous Weapon
100 Essences
5 SLS
2 Ore (same progression as Ninja strikes)

From there I would remove the group lore tag and make each weapon type lore.  Meaning you could have long sword and mace, but not dual wield a long sword.  I would also make each weapon type have its own unique proc similar to the clicks that were added.

long sword: magic dd
mace: heal
great staff: ae
dagger: poison dd
bow: ??

[hateborne]

A) Dim, thank you for actually posting useful/actionable info.
B) If you don't like numbers, SUGGEST A NEW MODIFIER(S) AND SPECIFY WHICH BLOCK (i.e. UW Damage Mods). Simply saying that you don't like them and posting no alternatives/suggestions is pretty much the same as not posting at all.
C) Those asking about refund see post: http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=4241.msg54088#msg54088


-Hate

[Expletus]

Tad on the defensive side hate. Again you got 10 pages of ppl giving options and the majority saying leave white alone. But you're gonna do what you're gonna do regardless. With the numbers you posted I wouldn't waste my time and resources with the quest line but rather with augs / soa / etc.

[hateborne]

Added tiered tank hp and tiered dps damage to right side for scaling comparison (purple).


-Hate

[hateborne]

Tad on the defensive side hate. Again you got 10 pages of ppl giving options and the majority saying leave white alone. But you're gonna do what you're gonna do regardless. With the numbers you posted I wouldn't waste my time and resources with the quest line but rather with augs / soa / etc.

Keeze,

No offense friend but I've got about 2/3 of this thread as useful data. Now that I've posted more numbers, I'm getting lots of flak but no suggestions. It's hard to be patient/polite when being bombarded with "WTF fix the numbers!" in tells/PMs with no solid suggestions. The items are scaled off of the new tier dropped items, the scaled modifiers are on the spreadsheet in red boxes. If people want white damage up, suggest different modifiers.


-Hate

[Dimur]

The only thing I don't get is why the white damage and proc are considered too much damage.

100 of all of the essences would make 50 strike augs up to NS8, which would then make 16.66 NS9 and NS10 augs. I just assumed the white damage was there to bridge the gap. I'm sure I won't notice it as much with a full team, but what exactly is so threatening about the damage? Even with Ancestral Grudge, you can't even solo a trash mob in ToV before it wears off, and even with 3 shamans and 100% Ancestral Grudge uptime you wouldn't come anywhere near 8 dw classes with NS10 x2 all sitting on a mob.

I hope the Ultimate augs are going to make it worth it again 

Now instead of doubling my damage by instead making augs, I could have gained 8x the damage. This is a problem with the model. If the the weapon is going to be that weak, nobody will continue making it (well almost nobody   )

This represents a problem with the quest, not the weapon itself...you shouldn't be bothering with the quest until your toons are striked out anyhow, especially since you acknowledge that those resources would be better spent on strikes.  This is why Hunter's biggest mistake in making the UW quest was lacking the foresight to level lock it to a point in progression where you would have addressed maxing out strike augs prior to engaging in a quest that was intended to be something to consume resources after you had no need for them anymore.

As far as changes to AG, you're far more likely to see people with multiple bards than multiple shaman since bards aren't a 1 trick pony...they dual wield NS augs, have TB line for aggregate proc dmg on the group, have no issues with hate rollover since they can just fade at will, amp up DD damage and mana regen with their epic click.  Whereas shaman don't stack well, they don't do dps themselves, have limited dots and no real DD nukes, have a good group DD buff in kraken that one shaman can keep up on multiple groups, have a decent buff on their epic click that now lasts longer, but is still limited by the 15 minute lockout on single groups and 26?ish lockout when used with MGB.  The only real benefit they can offer in multiples other than keeping AG up is being able to buff their epic click more often than every 15-26mins.

[Raygan]

Now that I've posted more numbers, I'm getting lots of flak but no suggestions. It's hard to be patient/polite when being bombarded with "WTF fix the numbers!"

I think that is because people have been saying they understand the issue with the hitpoints but why touch the damage...over and over.

I think the other issue, considering how many essences it takes to just make one UW, you could make a whole bunch of dps classes for the cost.

I agree cut the hell out of the hitpoints but don't touch the damage.  For me you are taking a weapon that is 120k base and cutting it more than half!  that is a HUGE amount of dps lost!

You are scaling it against a weapon that cost 1 Tov essence to make.  The UW X cost me 100 ToV essences to make!

[Dimur]

I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere, but what is the significance of the DMG Mods on the UW weapons?  Does a 2.0 dmg mod mean that instead of new dmg on UWX sword being 46k, it's 92k?  And again, why is the bow being skewed so much less than the other weapons?  The 4.0 mod on it eclipses the 3.75 mod on the staff which takes up 2 slots.

Nevermind, I think I understand it now...you set an arbitrary baseline for the tier based weapon dmg on UW and applied a mod to each weapon type, please advise if I am wrong.

I still am not seeing why so much love is given to an item (bow) that really only benefits one class to use when they already have access to NS augs while diminishing another class' benefit they get by using the UW since they have no access to strike augs except exceedingly weak IS augs.

[marxist]

Hate, you post that anything refund oriented is something you are against because of the progress it enabled.  There would be more and easier progress equipping and augging out alt characters rather than building this weapon. Each augment and alt upgraded would provide a dps boost per augment upgraded, providing steady and exponential growth, whereas upgrading your uw took a lot more time for what would have been a smaller overall dps increase.

ex: Your party is doing 100k dmg, you upgrade an aug, its doing 105k dmg, upgrade another aug, 110k dmg, so on so forth.
With UW you are losing all the time and flexibility that smaller and faster upgrades would provide in order to gain an condensed dps item for a single character.  The logic in flat out refusing to compensate for previous UW gains is somewhat flawed from what I see

[marxist]

And I'm also curious about what dimur asked in terms of dmg mod (and how it would stack with UCs).  Also didn't see anything on aug slots.

[hateborne]

Now that I've posted more numbers, I'm getting lots of flak but no suggestions. It's hard to be patient/polite when being bombarded with "WTF fix the numbers!"

I think that is because people have been saying they understand the issue with the hitpoints but why touch the damage...over and over.

I think the other issue, considering how many essences it takes to just make one UW, you could make a whole bunch of dps classes for the cost.

I agree cut the hell out of the hitpoints but don't touch the damage.  For me you are taking a weapon that is 120k base and cutting it more than half!  that is a HUGE amount of dps lost!

You are scaling it against a weapon that cost 1 Tov essence to make.  The UW X cost me 100 ToV essences to make!

I'm assuming you are referring to UW Sword 10. You are looking at the 120k -> 46k white damage, but plainly or foolishly ignoring the 298k -> 330k proc increase. Yes I understand that white damage counts more per swing than procs. Procs do not encounter AC modifiers (as Dim has stated) while white damage does.

Not thrilled with those projected numbers with the amount of time it takes per tier.

Also the dmg on the bow is ridiculous compared to the other weapons.

I hope you scale the zones based on epic and not on uw cuz losing that amount of hp and dmg is a huge hit.

Use the bow and tell me you don't agree with that decision on bow damage/proc. :-)

As for the HP drop, this change will happen with T7/T8/T9 NPC damage and NPC health changes. I've stated this nearly every other page in this thread.

Hate, you post that anything refund oriented is something you are against because of the progress it enabled.  There would be more and easier progress equipping and augging out alt characters rather than building this weapon. Each augment and alt upgraded would provide a dps boost per augment upgraded, providing steady and exponential growth, whereas upgrading your uw took a lot more time for what would have been a smaller overall dps increase.

ex: Your party is doing 100k dmg, you upgrade an aug, its doing 105k dmg, upgrade another aug, 110k dmg, so on so forth.
With UW you are losing all the time and flexibility that smaller and faster upgrades would provide in order to gain an condensed dps item for a single character.  The logic in flat out refusing to compensate for previous UW gains is somewhat flawed from what I see

As I've tried vainly to explain previously, once you hit point X (again...for the fourth time, literally X, not rank 10) you have beaten the tier without ever entering it. Once you reach this point, you can simply clear through whatever tier until you get 100 of the essences and break the next tier without entering it.

Many people have made OBSCENE gains because of the crazy amount of hp, resist, healing, damage it adds. I am not going to refund players for something they've used for months to massively accelerate their team(s) forward. Same with a car and whomever provided the speed limiter. If you bought a Porsche that goes 160 mph and had it for months/years, kick ass for you. Next U.S. gov't goes "lol speed limiters @ 100mph or tickets tickets tickets". If you were to approach the car dealer and expect/demand/ask-for a full/partial refund based on this new legislation, they would laugh until one of them likely required an ambulance.

I don't know how else to explain this rationally. It's provided HUGE gains for a long time and will still provide a fairly brutal improvement over the dropped bits to recognize the effort you ladies/gents/trolls have put in to it.


-Hate

[Dimur]

To echo what Hate has said, people have benefited from using the UW already and there's really no reason to expect a refund of resources.  I don't see anyone who already had their UW10, prior to the UW nerf notice from Hunter months ago, asking for reimbursement and really those are the only people who legitimately could be asking.  Anyone that has advanced their UW since Hunter and Hate both acknowledged it was going to be toned down in some capacity did so knowing that the end result wasn't going to necessarily be what it currently is.

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