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[Engels]

I liked the idea of putting the name of the person who killed the mob on the corpse timer, if that is even possible.  It would help with people contacting that individual to see if they can get permission to loot.

Yes that is no doubt the 2nd best solution offered thus far.  Instances are by far obviously the best way to eliminate the problem.  I don't know the difficulty either would require to make happen, as I know zero about running a server or customizing the game code.

[Thyl]

Yes that is no doubt the 2nd best solution offered thus far.  Instances are by far obviously the best way to eliminate the problem.  I don't know the difficulty either would require to make happen, as I know zero about running a server or customizing the game code.

I'd imagine numerous instances would be resource intensive. Also you are then kind of moving towards an online single player game.

Its a shame that lengths like this even come in to discussion for issues that could be resolved with common decency. Whether or not people read the forums linked by the MOTD they should know better. Weeding out people who don't respect the rules isn't going to put a hurt on the population.

[robpickles]

Its a shame that lengths like this even come in to discussion for issues that could be resolved with common decency.

That's the key phrase right there....wish more people had that. 

[Engels]

Also you are then kind of moving towards an online single player game.

As long as the content is difficult enough to require more than a single person, I don't know how this is leaning towards a single player game.  Raid content will still require a raid to complete regardless of whether its instanced or not.  It will just alleviate some of the drama involved with ninjaing, campstealing, leap frogging, training, etc.  World of Warcraft is the largest MMO in existence, and almost every viable zone worth salt is instanced.  If instances were not a good thing to have I doubt MMOs would have begun using them, and that includes Everquest.  Some of my fondest memories of EQ includes completing MPG trials and DoDH missions with friends.  None of that content was soloable or considered single player.

[Engels]

And if we are using the no leniency policy of if you didn't kill it, and didn't get permission to loot it, then that is ninja looting, I vote to ban Rob.

Well after A LOT of time in Dulak finding the same 3 monk pieces, I finally picked up a bp, arms and feet from those abandoned corpses.

I was stunned and happy at the same time.

J/k Rob, I really don't want to ban you bud, was just using this as an example.  But what if someone would have come back from an LD and sent you a tell saying, "WTF".  Im sure you would have felt bad, apologized and tried to come to a solution like a reasonable person.

But what if that person you were dealing with wasn't being sensible?  What if he took screenshots/fraps of the incident and got you banned?  Would that be just?

[Thyl]

Also you are then kind of moving towards an online single player game.

As long as the content is difficult enough to require more than a single person, I don't know how this is leaning towards a single player game.  Raid content will still require a raid to complete regardless of whether its instanced or not.  It will just alleviate some of the drama involved with ninjaing, campstealing, leap frogging, training, etc.  World of Warcraft is the largest MMO in existence, and almost every viable zone worth salt is instanced.  If instances were not a good thing to have I doubt MMOs would have begun using them, and that includes Everquest.  Some of my fondest memories of EQ includes completing MPG trials and DoDH missions with friends.  None of that content was soloable or considered single player.

My friends and I often toy around with the idea of creating an online game. In addition to having some game programming experience we have played almost every MMO you can think of between us. We all agree that WoW is a well polished game but it's ultimate failing is that it is an environment that spawns douchebags.

I usually attribute this to the ease that a single person can progress to the end game without really being forced to interact with other players.

A person on this server could pretty easily box their way to T2.  Part of what made original EQ great was that it actually took teamwork to accomplish things. On this server you can make it alot further by yourself then on live. I think the situation would be pretty horendous if people were isolated till they had to raid. Not to mention the detriment to new players interacting with the older base.

I was still playing when EQ instanced Time. I played on TZ and it greatly benefited my guild who had competed with Pandemonium and Indignation for numerous spawns over the years.  SoE didn't deciede to go back through the game and instance all zones like Crushbone.  I'm not sure if it was ever really a viable option but I'm glad they didnt.

Btw WoW is the most successful MMORPG it's not the largest MMO.  Being the most successful doesn't make it an ideal game.  Even in WoW though you don't have everything instanced. People do have to sometimes compete or wait for certain spawns.

[Engels]

Sorry, just going back and reading some of the earlier posts in this thread.  This guy is undoubtedly one of my favorites:

In Dulak for instance... I looted everything that was on the ground unless people were there.

If noone is there... hell ill loot if i need. Nobody is there anyways so its "abandonned" i guess

Maybe I wasnt supposed to but you know what, if no one is there, too bad.  If someone complains... how the hell can he prove to me he did the kill in the first place anyways?

No one = I loot

how many times i ran into corpses in LDON to find Credits on them lol... hell I am alone and its rotting... guess what.. its now mine!
Plain and simple 

But then he says...

Official rules...

• No exploiting
• No warping
• No bot / afk farming
• No bad words
• No spamming
• No kill stealing
• No hording Tiki's
• No ninja looting
• No trains
• Do not crash zones
• Do not share accounts
• Use common sense
• Play nice and don't grief

The description...

NO NINJA LOOTING
Don't loot mobs that don't belong to you unless the person/group that killed it gave you permission.

I think its clear enough and doesnt require any debate!

This makes me chuckle.  Crystal clear Lodar, crystal...but only when it is convenient.

You guys that think this rule is crystal clear are wrong, Im sorry.  It might be crystal clear to you Crab and Thyl, but to a majority of players there is a pretty large grey area of ambiguity.

[Thyl]

You guys that think this rule is crystal clear are wrong, Im sorry.  It might be crystal clear to you Crab and Thyl, but to a majority of players there is a pretty large grey area of ambiguity.

Just because someone is unlikey to report you for looting a diamond off a corpse they left half way across the zone doesn't make the rule any less clear.

Why do you keep arguing that someone's ability to do something makes the rule ambigious?

People jaywalk all the time and don't get caught, it doesn't make it anymore legal or make the laws about it any less clear.

Now hopefully everyone isn't some jerk just waiting to catch people looting random trash mobs they left long ago but it doesn't make the rule less clear.

[Gunthar]

I found another issue which making me requesting a shorter corpse decay timer of for ex. 15 min or even less. This issue happens a lot in crowded or dense populated zones like Mistmoore Castle.

The rules states that what you not kill are you not allowed to loot without permission. Otherwise is that what you kill on your own you have the right to loot. Now imagine that you want to kill a mob in a dense area like the inside of the castle. Now you see at the mobs place already being a corpse there and a living mob. Now you engage the living mob and it dies at the same place as the already existing corpse. When you now have to switch target to engage an add and then turning back to the corpses. As long either someone to ask for the other corpse looting right is there or the corpse lock timer is still there you can try to loot your own corpse (or both with the rights). But when both is not available it could be that you loot the wrong corpse or you can not loot your corpse because the other one is blocking it!

Another thing with the corpses are, that they causes additional lag or can even cause crashes which happened to me once after getting into a Velketor flooded with corpses! I do not know how much corpses are affecting the server itself but it have an impact on the clients and probably on the bandwidth between server and clients.

[Engels]

Why do you keep arguing that someone's ability to do something makes the rule ambigious?

ambiguous [æmˈbɪgjʊəs]
adj
1. having more than one possible interpretation or meaning
2. difficult to understand or classify; obscure
[from Latin ambiguus going here and there, uncertain, from ambigere to go around, from ambi- + agere to lead, act]

I am arguing that people are having a difficult time understanding the rule(2), and that the rule is being interpreted differently by different people(1).

Heck, Lodar interpreted the rule in two different ways within one month.

Some people are saying that it is okay to do it in Dulak, but not higher content.

These are ambiguous arguments.

Why do you keep arguing that because the rule is clear to you, it is clear to everyone who plays on EZ?

[zolton32]

It really does no good to try to get them to see things from another persons perspective. take a look at :

http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=398.msg5003;topicseen#new

In it all i tried to do was explain why some players feel they had to ninja loot in qvic. What did i get for it? Alot of hostility and name calling. Some people on these forums do not care to look at things from another persons perspective. And all you are gonna get from trying to get them to see it from anothers view is a head ache a lot of hostility and/or name calling.

To them its 100% black and white. Heck i asked them about the camping rules and i was accused of trying to get around them. >_<

As an exampile the rules stated:

NO KILL STEALING
Place nice here, and don't kill steal. You can hold a camp if you are not afk. When a mob spawns, you need to engage it, or else you will be considered afk and forfeit the camp. You can not have 1 toon hold the camp while waiting for your group to arrive.

Then:

You can go afk while camping for a boss but need to engage the boss within 5 minutes of it spawning. If the boss has been up for 5 minutes, and the person is not attacking it yet, then they forfeit the camp and anyone can have it.


I mentioned a situation where a person had his alt sitting at a boss while off killing another. Yet the rules state you can not have an alt hold a camp as stated above and further in the rules it states you can not hold 2 camps at once. i was told i was wrong for leaving a camp while a person killed 2 spawns of said boss as they needed 2 drops to come back and have my spot back despite the other person only had an alt there and was off killing another boss on his main >_< (the person with his alt came after i had left to kill 2 other bosses and was not with the 3 people who were there before killing for 2 drops))

A link to the topic i mentioned:

http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=380.0

And for trying to clarify this and ask questions concerning the rules i was met with alot of hostility name calling as well as being accused of trying to get around the rules. >_< I would say it best to not even try and move on and save yourself the head ache and drama that is sure to come.

[Thyl]

It really does no good to try to get them to see things from another persons perspective. take a look at :

And for trying to clarify this and ask questions concerning the rules i was met with alot of hostility name calling as well as being accused of trying to get around the rules. >_< I would say it best to not even try and move on and save yourself the head ache and drama that is sure to come.

Maybe its cause you litter your posts with silly ascii faces. Or maybe it's just the overwhelming irony of you posting about perspective. You always assume you are fighting for the underdog because you are talking about the perspective of less geared players.  Do you ever consider that more geared players worked and put time in to get where they are and deserve the fruits of their labors?

Seriously Zolton I can't account for what everyone has said to you but I tried very hard in the begining to just match your arguments with thoughtful responses.  You just blow everything off as hostile and stick to your one moot point about perspective.

If a poor man steals a loaf of bread because he can't buy one to feed his family is it a shame? Yes. Is it still a crime? Yes! Thats one of the points I have tried to argue in the other thread, in addition to things not being as dire as you make them out to be.

I get that people hit hard points sometimes. I have had them too. Could it result in a rule change? Maybe. But it doesn't make the rule any less clear.

Btw in that one thread you mentioned with the guy and the camp. I even posted saying you were at least right in one of your arguments.

[Gantrathor]

I'm sorry Engels, but you're rationalizing.

The rule is clear.  It's plainly stated.  There is no room for interpretation.  Ignorance of the Law is not an excuse.

People see grey area because they either have not read the rules, or don't wish to abide by them so they try to push the envelope.  Honestly, as the rule is stated, please tell me what part now seems grey to you.  Not what part don't you agree with, or what part seems excessive.

Lodar's previous posts don't contradict the rule.  He knows the rule.  He understands the rule.  There are instances in which he chooses to ignore the rule.  In all of the hypotheticals, people are simply putting forth scenarios in which they would choose to ignore the rule.  That's fine.  You pay your money and you take your chances.  If you choose to ignore the No NinjaLooting Rule and someone gets bent out of shape about it, you risk punitive action.  Ban, Delevel, Stern Lecture, Whatever it may be.

Let's face it, if you loot abandoned mobs in Dulak all day you'll probably never hear a word about it.  Ten Point Tokens in LDoN?  Probably not going to elicit any comment from anyone.  Trash mobs get abandoned all the time and people go thru and loot them and no one cares.  But that doesn't change the fact that it is against the rules of the server.

Would Hunter ban someone for looting something off of a trash mob?  Probably not unless that person had a history.  But that doesn't make the rule "grey."  It means that Hunter is a reasonable person.  The rule is still the rule.

[Thyl]

I'm sorry Engels, but you're rationalizing.

The rule is clear.  It's plainly stated.  There is no room for interpretation.  Ignorance of the Law is not an excuse.

People see grey area because they either have not read the rules, or don't wish to abide by them so they try to push the envelope.  Honestly, as the rule is stated, please tell me what part now seems grey to you.  Not what part don't you agree with, or what part seems excessive.

Lodar's previous posts don't contradict the rule.  He knows the rule.  He understands the rule.  There are instances in which he chooses to ignore the rule.  In all of the hypotheticals, people are simply putting forth scenarios in which they would choose to ignore the rule.  That's fine.  You pay your money and you take your chances.  If you choose to ignore the No NinjaLooting Rule and someone gets bent out of shape about it, you risk punitive action.  Ban, Delevel, Stern Lecture, Whatever it may be.

Let's face it, if you loot abandoned mobs in Dulak all day you'll probably never hear a word about it.  Ten Point Tokens in LDoN?  Probably not going to elicit any comment from anyone.  Trash mobs get abandoned all the time and people go thru and loot them and no one cares.  But that doesn't change the fact that it is against the rules of the server.

Would Hunter ban someone for looting something off of a trash mob?  Probably not unless that person had a history.  But that doesn't make the rule "grey."  It means that Hunter is a reasonable person.  The rule is still the rule.

Thank you Gantrathor, I couldn't put it better.

Engels, I am trying to tell you with no ill will, people understand the rule. Just like with any rule or law they follow them to the degree that they choose. It doesn't make it less clear.

I like most people sometimes speed while driving. Doesn't make the law less clear.

Anyone can say anything I loot is mine, doesn't mean its the truth. Obviously depending on the situation you may or may not be punished for your actions but that doesn't make the intent of the rule less clear.

[Crabthewall]

I'm sorry Engels, but you're rationalizing.

The rule is clear.  It's plainly stated.  There is no room for interpretation.  Ignorance of the Law is not an excuse.

People see grey area because they either have not read the rules, or don't wish to abide by them so they try to push the envelope.  Honestly, as the rule is stated, please tell me what part now seems grey to you.  Not what part don't you agree with, or what part seems excessive.

Lodar's previous posts don't contradict the rule.  He knows the rule.  He understands the rule.  There are instances in which he chooses to ignore the rule.  In all of the hypotheticals, people are simply putting forth scenarios in which they would choose to ignore the rule.  That's fine.  You pay your money and you take your chances.  If you choose to ignore the No NinjaLooting Rule and someone gets bent out of shape about it, you risk punitive action.  Ban, Delevel, Stern Lecture, Whatever it may be.

Let's face it, if you loot abandoned mobs in Dulak all day you'll probably never hear a word about it.  Ten Point Tokens in LDoN?  Probably not going to elicit any comment from anyone.  Trash mobs get abandoned all the time and people go thru and loot them and no one cares.  But that doesn't change the fact that it is against the rules of the server.

Would Hunter ban someone for looting something off of a trash mob?  Probably not unless that person had a history.  But that doesn't make the rule "grey."  It means that Hunter is a reasonable person.  The rule is still the rule.

Thank you Gantrathor, I couldn't put it better.

Engels, I am trying to tell you with no ill will, people understand the rule. Just like with any rule or law they follow them to the degree that they choose. It doesn't make it less clear.

I like most people sometimes speed while driving. Doesn't make the law less clear.

Anyone can say anything I loot is mine, doesn't mean its the truth. Obviously depending on the situation you may or may not be punished for your actions but that doesn't make the intent of the rule less clear.

Both of you summed that up very well. It's the point I've been trying to make and failing miserably at. Well spoken indeed. 

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