EZ Server

Upcoming Caster Changes (1-30-15)

Here is a PREVIEW of the upcoming changes. They are not final, but coming very shortly (within next week or so). I have been tinkering with these when I am not able to log in and work directly on T10, so please don't start attacking me about not working on T10 in this thread. These changes are, on the surface, negative...but it's a two fold bit. If you have issues with something, PLEASE POST IT CONSTRUCTIVELY. Criticism and praise are welcome in a constructive manner. Trolling/spamming/exploding will result in a forums suspension.

I will break up the thread into sections for easier reading and quoting.


Healing:

• Avenger's Touch had it's percentage heal max value decreased by roughly 20%.
• Skin of the Drake has a recast time of 90s (up from 30s).
• Skin of the Drake III trigger saw a 20% drop.
• Skin of the Drake IV trigger saw a 30% drop.
• Druid Single-Target Regeneration has been increased by 30%.
• Remissive Remedy now has a 0.5s cast time (down from 1.5s), with a cooldown increased to 40s (up from 20s).
• Purge Weakness now has a 0.5s cast time (down from 1.5s), also cleric usable.
• Breath of Nature had it's recovery time increased to 2.5s (from 1.5s).
• Word of Vivification will become a 1.5s recast (down from 2.5s).
• Ancestral Honor 8.0 decreased to 100k HP buff (from 150k).
• Ancestral Honor 9.0 decreased to 132k HP buff (from 200k).
• Armor of the Crab increased to 30k HP buff (from 10k).
• Armor of the Crab II increased to 75k HP buff (from 20k).
• Clerics have a new rank of Word of Vivification, 20k base healing. Will likely find it's way in T8 and/or T9.
• Both ranks of Word of Vivification have a 10% chance to hit all clients in 100 units for half of the base heal amount (6k for rank one, 10k for rank two).
• Clerics and Paladins gain access to a new spell, Exorcise Evil, which dispels harmful magic effects from a target. (0.25s cast, 15s recast)
• Clerics gain access to a new spell, Exorcise en Masse, which dispels harmful magic effects from group members. (0.25s cast, 90s recast)¹

Damage:

• Kaldar's Heavenly Fire is now 60k per target, across four targets, in three waves. Cooldown was increased to 24s. (Up from 24k and 12s CD)
• Kaldar's Heavenly Fire II is now 126k per target, across four targets, in three waves. Cooldown was increased to 24s. (Up from 60k and 12s CD)
• Static Burst is now 40k to all nearby targets. Cooldown was increased to 18s. (Up from 10k and 15s CD)
• Static Burst II is now 96k to all nearby targets. Cooldown was increased to 18s. (Up from 50k and 15s CD)
• Polarity Flux is now 20k to four targets. (Up from 10k)
• Polarity Flux II is now 48k to four targets. (Up from 45k)
• Polarity Flux III is now 120k to four targets. (Up from 100k)
• Shy Crustacean's Soul Eater is now 30k. (up from 5k)
• Shy Crustacean's Soul Eater II is now 75.6k. (up from 20k)
• Timeless: Tempest Wind is now 27.5k per wave, to four targets, across six waves. Cooldown was increased to 35s (Up from 7.5k and 16s CD)
• Timeless: Tempest Wind II is now 62.5k per wave, to four targets, across six waves. Cooldown was increased to 35s (Up from 37.5k and 16s CD)

Items:

• Earring of the Mystic Ages focus, Painfully Gorgeous, has been redesigned. It now adds additional spell damage that stacks multiplicatively with the Ultimate Charm. Effects are 10/20/30/50/100% per rank.
• Mana Necklace has been redesigned to better utilize casters as casters, not proc hunters. The new Pirate's Ire effect will add a 75% bonus per rank (75% of base damage, additive) and proc only the pet buff (First Mate's Gift).
• First Mate's Gift has been changed from Icestrike-like damage to Firestrike-like damage.
• MANA NECKLACE RECIPES ARE DISABLED UNTIL THE RECIPES ARE UPDATED AND THESE CHANGES GO LIVE. This is being done to prevent people skipping up ranks while it is cheap. They are being scaled up in cost in light of these changes.
• Ultimate Weapons *MAY* become class adjusted, like the zone dropped weapons and/or the UW 2H and H2H items.

Mechanic:

• Spell haste can stack almost unlimitedly. Spells can get as low as 0.25s cast time. (This is already live)

Let the sh**storm begin.


-Hate

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¹ - Cooldown subject to be halved...just tinkering around with it.

EDIT#1: Added Timeless: Tempest Wind damage increased. Overlooked :-)
EDIT#2: Breath of Nature recast removed, Word of Vivification lowered instead. UW changes struck out.
EDIT#3: Clarified where Avenger's Touch was being adjusted. Added cleric spells that I overlooked from notes.
EDIT#4: Clarified that the Druid Regeneration increase it the single target regen (not Pack Regeneration).

/popcorn

Seems like decent but if you're changing the way skin works in 2 different ways it may be a little much... maybe a 60 sec recast do you might be able to use it more than once a pull

OK

So skin can be used for pulling still it just is not usable for heals once you get back when it was most crucial to have IE the first 40 seconds of the fight when you have the most mobs on you.


so smaller pulls


really not sure if the druid is going to have a place anymore when I can just add another dps toon and do smaller faster pulls...

we shall see...

Will have to wait and see how it effects play, but...

I can see a potential issue with the T9 undead raid.  With out Drake on board my full T9/UW10 War goes down like a $5 hooker if his Pal and/or cleric gets aggro (and they do get aggro alot).   May just require some tuning on that particular encounter?

Let'er rip on the changes and let's see what's needed afterwards.

Seems solid to me... Drake increased recast seems like the best fix for op druids.

That's exactly the problem with Drake currently. High enough rank and it makes the tank invincible. It is the only heal to scale off of the target RECEIVING the buff instead of the one CASTING the buff, which is inevitably the tank (which is inevitably the best geared character).

Additionally, that event can be looked at in terms of difficulty and raw numbers. :-)


-Hate

Looks good here, can't wait to see it active.

Gotta get my 15 wizard team back up to snuff

I will have to test out the changes in game to really get a feel for the effect on playstyle.

I dont get however, the rearranging of the HP buffs. I may be dumb but help me out here, you are taking away 68k hps from sham and giving  55k hp from cleric.. why is total hp buffage getting nerfed? Was that really an issue that seemed op?

- Harthek

They were still SUPER high from the pre-adjustment (before I nerfed HP/damage across the board [for mobs] with UW HP lowering). I overlooked them. I also wanted cleric HP buffs to be ...useful. :-)

---

Updated original post with druid AoE spell damage increase.


-Hate

Yeah, bout that....

lol rekt, druid is going back in the garage.

I want to say something constructive but for every good thing in the update the skin change kills the entire purpose of the class and makes them lowest on the food chain again.

Keeping 1 spell active equals a nearly 100% immortal tank.. Give HB a chance there will be "other" reasons to play with a druid.

Honestly if you think about it, the druid had 1 use before drake. Regen to put on you doing RoA when you had to level. Drake made them desirable almost required. With the nerf to drake, and yes it is a nerf, they are still "good" w/the drake but they are no longer desirable. So back into the garage for Moocow.

If this is the case, then Drake was either incredibly overpowered or the Druid is a trash healer. Which is it?


-Hate

Skin was changed the first time because it was "overpowered" and now it's still "overpowered" even though let's be honest ; it's almost a necessity for it to be powerful with how content is further down the road to effectively pull and clear. They are a trash healer, but if I wanted a healer I'd roll a paladin or cleric. It just seems there is no happy point for skin. If it stays it's overpowered, if it doesn't , the class will be complete trash and doubtful anyone will favor it over a dps slot in their group make up. Unfortunately there is no in between on skin, we already settled with a change once on it.

Dru is.far from a necessity... Skin is op.. I have stated before the old dynamic of skin was actually less op than it's current state...however with the uw heal.and war bp.it made it.seem like you were immune.. but it was far from once.you hit that counter limit if recast want up then heal went poof... (on cell sorry)

The effect is stupidly OP because of it scaling off of the TANK'S gear. Hindsight and all that hippy crap, I should've set it LOW and slightly stair-stepped it up. Past aside, what specifically is wrong with the druid as a healer? Mana efficiency isn't a concern, damage is higher than cleric, healing throughput isn't terrible.

What specifically is wrong with the druid as a healer? :-)

---

I agree. It was easier to manage before with numhits, but I wanted to create a tool that was a GREAT way to safely round things up or preparing for a HIGH damage part of a fight. What I ended up doing is making a godmode buff. :-\


-Hate

I never said druid was a necessity, I said the strength of the skin was a necessity

Edit: I don't see the point in arguing this out and causing an unnecessary shit storm. I just came back and was getting back into the game after a little break for RL and other games but I see that was my first error.

Ok, fair enough. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't actually useless. :-)


-Hate

mainly skin was for pulls and that burst of dps you get when you have 30+ pulled..now they cant be used for the big pulls so it will just change how we all play some...its all good I will add a zerk and have smaller pulls that die faster

Just add more druids to your crew, like running 4 zerks

the only thing a druid really allows as far as that buff is concerned is the ability to pull an assload of mobs. so its really a farming tool, just like the old "click, boom" on the UW was.

ok, so we (people that decided to use the spell) got used to using the spell for what it could be used for, so now we will get used to not using it. no big deal really.

end of the day, you just scrap the druid, put that bastard on the bench, pull the wizard off the bench and put him in the line up cause he is now the flavor of the month class.

I really don't see a need for this thread to continue as it is all just opinion on a matter that has already been decided. We can post all we want, but its just going to be throwing shit up on the wall and hoping something sticks at this point, cause again, its already been decided.

As far as what else does a druid have to offer? Regen and buffs. Still viable. Just have them sit out in the cold for a while as a buff bot and then when you (as a player that used drake) get used to not having/using drake, quit logging them on.

Drudi nukes? sure, I guess they have them, but why use that now with the wizard coming off the bench and into the line up.

Again, end of the day what is going to happen is what has been stated above, smaller pulls and kill faster as opposed to larger pulls that die slower. it really wont change a damn thing as we will all just adjust around the change. its not going to "kill" the game or kill the "play" one way or another, its just a change. Most people that are arguing just simply do not like changing the way they have gotten used to playing their core.

Most people I have talked to say "well, I never used drake, so I don't care, it is overpowered." Great, so you didn't use the tool available, whatever. Some of us did realize that we could do it this way and decided to take advantage of that. Your opinion, in my eyes, is just as useless as our opinion of saying "we do care."

it doesn't mean jack squat cause again, dead horse, dead issue, change made. deal, get over, lets talk about something else lol

I plan on just running 3 druids in my 18 im happy with the changes :)

I had a nice post outlined and then refreshed to see Rents post. Great point, bench the druid, roll a wizard. Glad my 2nd group isnt all the way through T5 yet.

I wasn't the first to point it out but I've bee planning it for a few weeks now lol

so my wizzy...what do you all think we can expect from a maxed out uc3 wizzy? how good is it?

This is a lot of changes all at once.   I do not see why changes have to be made in such huge chunks.   Have a look at Agile Development.   I would suggest breaking these changes into smaller chunks, releasing and getting feedback from the customer.   Yes, we are the customer.  Without players there will be no EZ period.   Release in small chunks, see how it works out, tweak, rinse and repeat.  

Druid being a dps class is a failed experiment.  Who here casts Tempest Wind please raise your hand.    Not I, I would put my dps up against anyone on the server.   They should be healers.   Even with every aggro reducing item in game my druid would still get aggro on one click of the epic.  

Could you go with 60 second recast on Drake vice 90?     It may have been awhile since you played, but 90 seconds is a long time in an EZ server fight.     Our fights rarely last 90 seconds... maybe on huge pulls they last that long.    Also, why the nerf to Breath of Nature?  That is 2 hits on the druid class right there.     If you want to make clerics better healers, make them better healers, no need to nerf other classes.    Perhaps you could increase the healing on Timeless Chlorobon II or give another rank?   I'd like to be able to use my druid as making another toon seems silly at this point.

Actually, I would recommend that you get a group of 6-18 and do a run through T9 (if you haven't already).  

Ultimate Weapons *MAY* become class adjusted, like the zone dropped weapons and/or the UW 2H and H2H items.

Please do not mess with the UW.   There have been enough changes to the weapon we all have spent hours upon hours on.  

Additionally, have players been begging for caster changes?    The dynamics of EZ have been fairly consistent since 2010 (when I started playing anyway).    Why spend all this effort to work on casters?  

Dead server if customer feedback is not taken into account.   

I disagree

Man, my beastmode laptop went paperweight on me so i took some time off and i come back to this. Wow.

Agree with a lot of what Maslow said above. Leave the effing UWs alone. It's a metric spitload of grind.. hence it's a cardinal sin to mess with it. Class specific? Is the zerker one going to double epic AE clicks? Actually, lets go right to the low blows-- Is the paladin one going to heal at pre-nerf levels? Is the druid UW going to cast pre-nerf skin with the old-school cool down timer? /rant off.

Altho i do agree with the idea that there were people clamoring for caster enhancement. Hell i was guilded with one. They'd log in for like two weeks straight every 4th month. Rant about casters in /ooc and on the boards, then disaf*ckingapper for another 3 months. Even charitably you can't call them the regular serverbase. But cest la vie, empowering the caster community is perfectly fine as long as it doesnt affec.... aww eff.. Look Virginia, it's a ship, and it's already sailed!

Lessee what else.. oh.. The real issue. Going beastmode Stacy Koon on druids with the LAPD nerf stick has another rippling water affect. It really makes those with 3+ zerkers tapout to their gag reflex because we at least need time to pull our hair back in a ponytail and relax the jaw muscles while we switch to raw single target dps or bring up some wizards or.. something..

seriously tho, /rantcompletely off.

This server has gone through some serious change since Hate and Akk took the reigns. a small portion bad, the vast majority good. The hardware capabilities skyrocketed. The UW nerf was handled with caution and reasoning and most would agree it went rather well (godmode sword becomes moar dps sword). The minis were a great 'reason to log in today and do something for a half hr while i figure out what i really want to do). Earring of Ages was a great item for higher ups to strive for and really booted the economy for the lower tiers. The implementation of resists (and especially the stones dropping in tier progression outside of TOFS) was really well done. Shield of Ages was a great addition and a neat side grind. Halloween was just.. incredibly well done and a weeklong experience ill always treasure looking back upon my time here.

Place is in good hands. I wish ya all the best. I'm sure i'll be back at some point when i get my beast laptop back from the geek squad.

P.S. I really found myself only using drake in t6 t8 t9. That said, the thought of grinding out 100 t8 essences killing one mob at a time makes me want to pound sand, reaaaaallly hard. Revisiting the drop rate on that one might be a worthwhile good faith showing. Just sayin. :)

Kiwis

I think you are misunderstanding what he was saying. He was talking more like class type specific. However the current setup gives all classes multiple options. Yes, 2-3 types are used the most it does give you options ... we like having options.

some overreactions are expected... in no way are you going to be single pulling when farming anything...farming is indication you are past the content ..I can easly pull 16 mobs in TOV for my group to kill with only a paladin as healer...

Do not lose your shit its not a single pull server now.

Stun is making pulling much harder now..without drake a stun on a pull of even 16 mobs ends badly

Positives:

Damage:

    Kaldar's Heavenly Fire is now 60k per target, across four targets, in three waves. Cooldown was increased to 24s. (Up from 24k and 12s CD)
    Kaldar's Heavenly Fire II is now 126k per target, across four targets, in three waves. Cooldown was increased to 24s. (Up from 60k and 12s CD)
    Static Burst is now 40k to all nearby targets. Cooldown was increased to 18s. (Up from 10k and 15s CD)
    Static Burst II is now 96k to all nearby targets. Cooldown was increased to 18s. (Up from 50k and 15s CD)
    Polarity Flux is now 20k to four targets. (Up from 10k)
    Polarity Flux II is now 48k to four targets. (Up from 45k)
    Polarity Flux III is now 120k to four targets. (Up from 100k)
    Shy Crustacean's Soul Eater is now 30k. (up from 5k)
    Shy Crustacean's Soul Eater II is now 75.6k. (up from 20k)
    Timeless: Tempest Wind is now 27.5k per wave, to four targets, across six waves. Cooldown was increased to 35s (Up from 7.5k and 16s CD)
    Timeless: Tempest Wind II is now 62.5k per wave, to four targets, across six waves. Cooldown was increased to 35s (Up from 37.5k and 16s CD)


All of this looks good.   Particularly whats in bold.

Rent, damn fine post.

Peign, my schedule is much different from Hunter's. I don't have the ability to do what he did or even commit to small, timely updates as I have to do things outside of the server for a living (sadly...). As for the UW note and Breath of Nature, both struck out. To do you one better, Word of Vivification will be lowered (in recast) instead. :-)


Keep'em coming guys/girls/trolls!


-Hate

Hate,
As far as healing is concerned I never use single target healing it's just a waste of energy when boxing and breath has a hard time keeping group up specially if doted in t8. Granted Druid only has uc1 so maybe a bad example but nerfing breath kinda seems unnecessary? Yeah skin like drake was awesome made t8 bearable to do :)
Seems like some cool changes :)
I don't get beefing up the wave spells though tbh, they only hit 4 targets and caster could be one if those 4. Does anyone even use those spells and would they even after these changed? Kaldars is useless in t7 and mostly resisted in T8. Not sure about the others.

Edit - you posted right before I posted :)

Hi guys....weird day, passed out on the couch when I got home.

Interesting changes.....will have to see what the dynamic does. The druid changes are gonna hurt initially, because of how I've gotten used to killing in T8, T9....but I still believe they were needed. I like the increase to clerics, we'll have to see how they pan out.

Lots of viewpoints, and a lot to absorb. Will post more tomorrow (just woke up, and headed to bed :P). But all in all the changes look pretty good. Thanks for the work, Hate.

Oh, and one thing that did stick out (and not trying to pick on anyone) but why are people still saying they get agro with the druid epic click? I got zero agro on my druid unless something went horridly wrong....and thats chain casting epic click during combat.

Agree that at the moment druids seem to have gone from top dog for heals to 3rd place overall.....but time and trial will tell.

And another thing I noticed....Hate's first item on the list may end up being overall the biggest healer nerf, and no one said a word about it. I'll have to see, but even with the big crit heals I get off the pallies, 20% reduction is pretty heavy.

 Well, I would hope that many of us work.   A rare percentage of the world is independently wealthy and can have all leisure time.   Some work different hours or consulting allowing them more time to invest.     Anyway,  I would think that due to having less time, smaller changes would be a better thing.   That would allow you to fix it in timely manner if work or life takes you away.   Another option would be to get some more developers on board.   Actually this would be good, we need more developers with a voice to help guide the server.  A solid check and balance to keep the progressive policies firmly in check.  Hunter was good at work distribution and leveraging the assets he had available.   Also, a key aspect of time management is prioritizing.   Why spend time working on items that do not appear to be high priority?  I think casters are a high priority to 2 people that play here.   You (you don't play here though) and Aythena..... oh wait, she doesn't play here either, she just drinks a tall glass of QQ and spews it all over the server.   

Check out the book Getting Things Done by David Allen

    Unclear as to what you mean by UW and Breath of Nature striking out.      There is no need to change UW it is solid and offers options.        BoN, changes won't really impact anything just seems like 2 hits on a druid.       Did a druid cuckold you?   ;)

The changes on the AoE dmg spells are nice though.    Just release those and all is good.   

Just a couple words here. I honestly dont think you can really help casters that much, the server just isn't a caster frindly place. You could make a caster an absolute overpowered mess and alot of people still wouldnt use them. Why? They just are not that box friendly. I log on to relax kill some stuff and advance. I don't log in to pull set attack and press the 4 key every second to hit 1/4 of my pull. Heck T2 bosses even spawn over 4 mobs at a time some times.

I like that you are trying to make casters viable but realisticly they just wont get played. They just are not worth the trouble.

Hate.  Would like a solid reason behind paladin heal change, if I am reading this correctly (a nerf).  As someone who uses them to heal my entire raid, I am not feeling this. 

Considering most people were using a druid simply for drake, wouldn't buffing all forms of other healing via other classes (not just cleric?) be the counter balance?

Not to speak for Hate or anything but the reason Druids got whacked is they where over powered...raising the other healers to a even level with them would just make them MORE overpowered..so no...all the other healers don't need to get massively buffed.

I am curious if this is going to effect the one true xp farm spot in the game for top end players...all them millions of aa's may be slightly slower than 10k an hour now aye?

Caster changes will not make me want to play my casters any more than I do now...

I played all day yesterday without my druid and its doable with just pally healing...I understand they are going to get nerfed as well.. I do not know if it will be as true afterwards... requiring us to have 2 healers is just going to push us to playing more groups...

are the changes to heavenly fire going to effect the mistress familiars? cause that would be......epic

its also funny...tower of vie i personally find to be just as powerfull as drake and can easily be used in the same situations to stop tank from dying while pulling and no one has ever complained about that spell :P

on a full (78%) stonewall tank its like a 45-50% migitation buff...T9 trash hits for like 20-22k or so with it up.

Updated original post. Added clarifications on paladin heal reduction. Added missing new spells, Exorcise Evil and Exorcise en Masse.

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Peign, what I meant was I removed them from the list and they will NOT go live.

zymral, I'm aware. I'm not trying to force casters upon you. As balidet points out later, if you don't want to play one, that's totally fine. I'm just making sure they too have a fighting chance as a viable group member.

clbreastmilk, the max value (read: ceiling) from the percentage heal is receiving the 20% reduction. It means the potential for EXPLOSIVELY high crits goes down slightly. :-)

balidet, to bring others up to druids, I'd have to give each character a buff that makes the tank invincible for nearly 30 seconds with a 30 second cooldown. In effect, I should just add the Drake proc to the UC since that would give everyone permanent invulnerability the same as having three healers with similar bonuses. Not being overdramatic, but Drake is just over the top. This should be the last time I have to reach into the past.

Digz, no it will not because I separated the proc for lag reasons. I created a clone of the Heavenly Fire for the Mistress that has no particle effect. They will NOT be scaled up as it would effectively turn a berserker with Mistress into highest AoE DPS possible. Add UW2h and damn near best DPS class possible. As for Tower of Vie, yes it is a situational goodness but shouldn't have 100% uptime and doesn't make the tank literally invulnerable by itself for nearly 30 seconds at a time.




-Hate

A few observations regarding these changes.

1. Drake change is going to initially cause people to not bother playing them at all, and then they'll realize it's still the same spell for the most part except for the longer recast so people will just make 3 druids and we're basically right back where we were...full uptime potential on a spell that even at nerfed levels still will probably outheal incoming damage.  If you really want this to be a situational, oh shit type of spell but nothing you can use all the time regardless of the number of mobs beating on the tank then consider a better solution.  I'd suggest a more reasonable max hit counter, if you ideal mob pull is < 6 mobs or so then figure out how many attacks that number of mobs can fire off over the duration of the buff and make that the max hit count before the buff fades.  Pulling more mobs than what the intent of the spell is designed around would just make the buff fade faster, leave it up to the player to decide how they want to approach it.  Couple this with a short, oh-shit capable cast time of like .3 seconds so it can be fired off and give the druid time to start more conventional means of healing, make it a 60 second recast time similar to Vie's 30 second duration with 60 second recast time.  Hell, you could even make it a group castable spell just for added fluff, since mitigating damage on people other than the main tank is basically placebo at this point considering that rampage no longer exists in any form on this server.

2. The change to drake is undoubtedly going to have a negative impact on the number of mobs/hour people will be able to kill.  Don't get me wrong, with the proper setup, it can be negligible, but many of the people who use druids are set up to only use druids.  It's no doubt going to limit the kill rate for the majority of the population.  The drop rate of items like GSOA and AA crystals is certainly going to suffer, not to mention the incoming rates of AA.  The costs of AA associated items is ridiculously high in the current set up and either the rate of incoming experience needs to be boosted or the tiered cost of the upgrades needs to be adjusted downward.  Before anyone starts inferring that I'm looking to make my own grind easier, I'll just offer up that I am done with my ROA, I am 1 GSOA from being done with Earring and my mask is well into the 300's...I'm beyond the point of it impacting my game play at all.  I'm simply pointing out that these changes are going to have a negative impact on 99% of the players and mitigating the effect is something that should be seriously considered.

3. Good for casters, people that choose to play them should be rewarded for the extra effort required to do so but I can't ever see myself playing them seriously.

yeah i agree with the mistress deal, its already super good. Honestly, ive never used a druid so im not familiar with the cooldown and duration of the spell so i guess i cant compare those, just the effect. Yeah drake is still way better then vie especially if you're actually using it for standing in 1 spot tanking instead of pulling but in any situation where i would use vie i couldn't see myself saying "i wish i had drake instead". Uptime isnt that bad, 30sec uptime with 60 seconds down still allows you to have it for the important moments of a fight, its just not 100% like you said.

thank you for the clarification, my reading comprehension is teh suq when I'm gaming.     Very nice changes to the cleric.     I'm not a one trick pony healer, just use the tools that are available to maximize KPH.

Nice aoe dps changes and cleric changes, thanks for that.     

Lol these changes get better a better. Everyone roll a cleric over your paladins, it's the healer of the month.

Dimur, I'm aware of that. If some one is juggling the cooldown across three druids, what is the difference from juggling a near full HP heal across three clerics?

Would you ladies/gents/trolls rather have a number of hits to throttle it versus a longer cooldown and healing reduction? If so, I'm all for it. I'm just trying to remove the invulnerability that comes with it's use right now. I am trying to keep this thread open because I WANT feedback and would like to see how others would handle these.

I'm not ignoring or refusing help, I'm begging for it via threads like these.


-Hate

Dimur's idea looks real solid out of the idea's proposed for Drake.  It takes away the invuln but still lets the druid have some use.  Increasing train size is highly desirable in an environment where farming things can take months.  Numbers can be played around with but what exactly are we shooting for?  Clearing an entire zone in one pull maybe not, but a large train?  Sure.

Set it and forget it healing is still the preferred method unless someone has server stats to prove otherwise.  I don't think many people are going to find train size increases from timing 3 full heal clicks on 3 clerics.  Once the train reaches a certain size (mileage varies depending on a shit ton of variables) your war will get one rounded from full to 0.  This is the point where drake should come in and perhaps what it's original intention was?  Drake dropping off after # hits will give you Some increase, making it still useful. 

60 second recast, keep the rest of your changes the same.

I am of the mind of just letting these changes happen and then providing feedback with actual experience to correct....we are offering corrections to corrections that have not been corrected yet...(that's right? right?)

I have plenty of t7/8/9 clerics druids bards paladins wizzys chanters just waiting in the wings for it to be their day..

^ This still lets players with multiple druids (cough) stay immune.  This will become a staple if this is allowed.  Please consider the hit mechanic or other alternatives.

With this in mind (and I honestly don't know if it is possible or not) would it not be better to include a re-course effect to the skin buff that locks out the use of skin on that target for 30 seconds?  So regardless of how many druids you have, your tank will not be able to keep skin up back to back to back.  If you have the DPS to get the pull down to manageable hits by the time it wears off you live, if not you die.  Will not greatly change zone you have on "farm" but if not having an invul tank in progression is the point then maybe this is doable?

You asked for ideas... that's the best "rebalance" I can think of :)

The problem I see with the hit thing is what are you using drake for? or should I say what do you want to use drake for?

I use it for pulling really deep in the zone and making back to my group alive...then the first 30-45 seconds of that incoming train for slaying.

You don't gain much if any aggro on your healer and sometimes large trains kind of trickle in...(T9) and with traditional healing they go right for the healers and that can be bad.

With the hit thing am I going to run out of drake 20 seconds into a pull? and run back to my group low on life and still be 60 seconds from any other kind of reactive heal? this seems like it would be bad for the HP....

So we skip it on the pull because of the recast and now we are pulling fewer mobs (not such a big deal in t9 but maybe t8 is a problem) and we come back and launch drake..smaller train because we cant go as long on the pull...drake probably is just fine for this.

forgive me if I am thinking as I am typing I do this allot.

So smaller trains ...more pulls...more time. I am not sure That I can pull a train in t8 without a druid that I cant kill without the reactive proc anyway... I was playing around yesterday and cleared it with only 2 or 3 additional pulls( no more pulling the big ass circle all at once.../shrug) with no druid at all only using my paladin for heals...

so I guess for those of us at or near the end its going to slow us down some... but not that big of deal...

I am more curious about those coming up now? what is the effect going to be? if you only have 12 or 6 slots in your party do you still chose a druid? does the cleric make more sense? do you have to run 2 full time healers now per group and just have lower over all dps? love to have people chime in once this goes live with actual feedback!

A way to solve the waste of the first skin cast on druid is if they would take away all mobs doing ranged dps during a pull! It's ridiculous to pull all melee mobs and get ganked in my pull because they magically have arrows that can't be ripod since my back is to them in the pull. If they remove that annoying factor, that's one cast of Druid skin you save for the actual pull itself to the group.

^ This is not a factor in every tier (afaik).

So we have a potential debuff to block it, a shorter cooldown (but largely the same as the original post), or number of hits.

Debuff Method:
Pro: I could see keeping a short cooldown as it's still throttled by the debuff in place.
Con: Debuff takes another buff slot.

Shorter Cooldown:
Pro: It's still useful and does what is intended (healing buff for pulls or during enrage).
Con: It can be chained for perma-invulnerability with multiple druids.

Hit Cap:
Pro: Is limited by the number of hits to prevent it from last too long.
Con: Can still be chained for perma-invulnerability and/or could wear off mid pull, potentially wiping tank/group.


All good ideas. Keep it going. Realistically, with the debuff method, I could ignore the cooldown changes and simply set a 60s debuff to prevent players from chaining it. Hmm, neato.


-Hate

Good summary.   Something to consider, chaining heals has been a key component of EQ since its inception.   CH rotation in essence made a tank immortal.    The objective of any healing strat is make your tank immortal   :)


oh, and SK pbaoe should be 150k and be zone wide, kk tks

Or just remove drake from the game and say figure it out, which in a round about way you are doing.... making it obsolete.

I assume you are referring to T7?   This was implemented to stop certain players from pulling the whole zone due to a bug in the war bp.    This was implemented back when T7 was max tier.    The mob speed was drastically increased too.    Probably could be reset since the bug was removed and it is now a farm tier.   /shrug

I wouldn't mind seeing that change if drake is going to change a little bit.

Debuff method works as a nerf, but makes a druid useless.  Cooldown with no debuff is chainable.  Hit method is nerf while still making a druid worth keeping around (depending on if the hit # allows for bigger trains than without it).

T7 Is tough on some pulls w/o drake on tier due to the speed and range thing.

Was thinking more of 30s lockout debuff, 30 up 30 down, but an ENFORCED 30s down, where other effects have to be juggled to keep the tank up...  And as for the buff spot, the great buff consolidation from before has helped this a ton, less of an issue now.

Thumbs up for most of these proposed changes except not sure why ancestral honor has to go down I would just bump crab a little more maybe 50/100 or something.

I would think you could keep the original proposed changes if you:

A. got rid of all mob magical arrows on pulling
B. toned mob speed down to T9 mob speed in the other tiers (T7 esp, but T6 and T8 as well)

this would allow you to never need to use drake as a pulling strat, just as a "keep me up for 30/45seconds of the pull hitting the tank at the point of kill" that way the clerics/shamans/paladins could start their healing rotations to keep the tank up.

AOE and straight DPS kills most of the crowd down pretty fast once your tank is back to the kill area, decreasing the need for massive healing. Also once your crew gets going they keep the tank up, especially the paladin swinging the sword.

in that scenario you would pull to what your tank's hps would allow, run back to your group and hit drake once to "cover" you and allow a small window to allow your paladin's heals, cleric hotkey heals to keep you up while you burn down the crowd. Therefore, you wouldn't need this a constant drake, thus the intended intent.

Drake could go back to being a sort of "oh shit" type heal, in this case your "oh shit" moment would be the moment the train hits your tank from the pull. once that "oh shit" moment wears off your crew is taking care of the train.

So here is the thread where this line of spells was implemented http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=2835.0
dated april 2012.

Skin of Drake I,II,III on this list

This line of spells has remained the exact same for what? almost three years? and now its OP three years later after lots of people have used this spell to get to t9 plus grind hundreds of hours essence farming for UW's, and now its OP? I don't get it, why now?

It's been changed multiple times in that time frame there bud, good try though.

I think this offers the most balance, as someone currently on t7 and wondering how some pulls will go post change.

Insert Quote
Quote from: troxeler on Today at 06:18:27 AM
So here is the thread where this line of spells was implemented http://ezserver.online/forums/index.php?topic=2835.0
dated april 2012.

Skin of Drake I,II,III on this list

This line of spells has remained the exact same for what? almost three years? and now its OP three years later after lots of people have used this spell to get to t9 plus grind hundreds of hours essence farming for UW's, and now its OP? I don't get it, why now?

It's been changed multiple times in that time frame there bud, good try though.

Well i haven't seen any post about the change to this particular spell, and i did make the assumption that it has remained the same the entire time.

Let me be more constructive.  As someone who logged into EZ after doing hours of research on forums, wiki, etc etc, i created a 12 man around the fact that this spell Skin of Drake was integral into my decision to run with a druid pal in my main group with tank and a cleric in my 2nd group for making sure they stay alive.  I use skin to pull and then when i get back with my pull again to stay alive for enough time to let my other heals, pally proc, Crab two shoes or druid BoN heal and druid regen help keep my warrior up.  I am not the type to sit in nexus /auction wtb gear, because i enjoy playing through the content, so i've been going tier to tier without overpowered gear, except for what was given to me early on by a very helpful person.  Even with the 30 sec cool down, which seems like too long sometimes, i still wipe my raid if i get to greedy on my pulls or rallos zek forbid i get a fizzle with my druid.  Drake helps me to survive the initial incoming before i can get my group engaged, but because my toons are geared for the content they are fighting in it sometimes takes me longer than 30 sec to get them all dead. after which waiting 90 sec seems like long time to wait before i can recast to make my pull again.  So yeah if this were the case then i would run smaller pulls but take me longer to clear a zone.  I have the max run speed reward item from credits and still have to strafe run to keep from getting beat on so much on big pulls of lower tier stuff, example hohonora, and even then one well timed stun will wipe me.  However, the excitement of getting back to my group alive and not have druid fizzle on drake  is what separates this server from other servers in the eqemu family. Pulling large trains of mobs on myself and watching them go down like flies because i put the right effort into building my team is just an awesome experience.

If the change is something that is going to happen regardless of what i and others are commenting on then i think Rent has nailed it pretty well. Although i'm just getting through t5 and not sure of run speeds in further tiers are like.


For some reason when i click insert quote from the original poster nothing happens, so i have ctrl c'd and ctrl v'd the quotes from others. I'm new to the forum and still figuring it all out. Thank you for your patience.

skin should not have been used as a "oh well i can pull bigger trains with this and be lazy" type device in the first place.... l2p in short.

Intention or not, that's how it is used at least in "farm" content.

Shall we define learn to play?  "Using every tool available to Progress as efficiently as possible".   Dumb ass comment.  I assure you, everyone T9 that had a druid Knew how to use that tool.

I never used skin to pull massive trains. Always did it one small chunk at a time. Felt wrong to do anything else honestly - and risky - I hate having to rez.

Probably won't even notice this change, although I wish it was 60s instead of 90s recast as it will likely create unnecessary downtime between pulls. If someone is willing to rank and run 2 druids let them be rewarded for that. I'd hate to see folks running around with 3 druids... that's just silly.

Right, if someone wants to roll 10 druids and chain whatever spell, let them.   Why should anyone be punished for having more than 1 class.    That is like developers of original EQ saying, those darn clerics, they are doing a CH rotation and making this encounter too easy.   Must put a 10 min timer on CH.     That never happened, and should not happen here. 

Its going to make the game harder for the people who are comming up this is without question..that is the idea...as for those like myself...we dont need drake...it changes almost nothing....I have been clearing t7/t8/t9 the last 2 days without drake..frankly you dont need it stop hitting the panic button..

100% agree with Rent, magical arrows need to disappear and the run speed on the targets need to be knocked down a bit with the changes to skin.

I agree that some of the "all mobs have arrows" needs some review...but if all of the mobs are stupid slow and can't hit you....then it's click-pull mobs, drop drake, be invincible, destroy pull, repeat. :-P


-Hate

I think this can be solved by applying a hit count to the spell, like your original version.     Can also cap spell duration to 15 seconds.    The larger your pull, the quicker it fades.       
 
Top end players use different raid configuration and strats  here.    If someone wants to run 10 paladins and 2 wars I do not think they should be punished in the code.       The sacrifice to that raid configuration is significantly less dps.   They will survive, but fights will be slow.

Yep, I understand that. I'm not trying to crucify, hamstring, or ruin gameplay...just trying to fix the current invulnerability 'oversight'. Games are fun with challenge. If you are just walking through and picking up loot, it's not really all the fun in my humble opinion. :-)


-Hate

t7 mobs run at max run speed.  They should be slowed down to something reasonable so you can pull w/o drake.

Some NPCs should be stupid fast for a variety of reasons (such as discouraging pulling a mob way outside of it's spawn to add some measure of difficulty). As I stated above, slowing the mobs down means that a warrior could run through, spam clicking the War3.0 or Sceptre, get back to group, receive Skin of the Drake, be invulnerable while burning down the mobs. That's really not addressing the problem I have with Drake, just shifting the time that the invulnerability happens. :-)


-Hate

But if you can't pull w/o drake.  Then something about it needs to be done.

Those cave areas quickly pwn my on tier tank w/o drake even with just 5 mobs.  Not sure what abilities they have but can go to dead very quickly.

I'm not saying they need to be kitable slow.  But Max run speed clicky should buy you some space from mobs, and it doesn't.

If on Tier... probably should be breaking into content.. expecting to pull a lot at one time with a "on tier tank"? ... I'm confused..

I've never tried, but can't you just pacify them?  It works or did work in ToV on cluster pulls, could even single the roaming drakes near ikatiar/eashan out with it.

Ok, that's noteworthy. I'll add to my list to review. :-)


-Hate


EDIT: Coat of Bright Lights was built SPECIFICALLY to address this type of situation.

My tank has 3 t8 pieces, rest t7, 1.75 mil hp buffed, shm 7.0 oak3 ora 424.  I'm in farming mode for my army's t7.  About 80% done.  All UC 1, half uc2'd, UW7.  I would expect to be able to pull areas w/o drake.  Like the caves,  That's 5-7 mobs.  If I don't use drake I die because of the speed of the mobs and the tight quarters. 

The speed of mobs is a problem w/ the drake nerf.  I'm not talking about pulling 30+ mobs .  But Just as you work through t6 and go from 6 hours to clear to < 2, I would expect at this point to be able to pull 10 mobs no problem in t7.  I'd bet I'd die more often then not sans drake.

agree the mobs in T7 are attacking like bat out of hell lately even with low count they never seem to miss just whamwhamwhamwham

As I said l2p shouldn't be/isn't needed to play adjust your game play and stop relying on a spell that heals for more than incoming damage to pull...I play an sk and take more damage than a war on pulls and I do just fine...I didn't actively play with skin knowing this day would come....
And you may say it's a hinder or whatever not having drake to pull...however I've seen a war with less gear than me pull all ntov without drake ... he knew the dynamics of how running in a correct fashion will allow you to take less damage... something I learned on live a long time ago... that's one main reason I know that a war will always be a better tank than an sk in this server...I'm ok with that...but you don't need skin to pull.. and you shouldn't need a spell that proc heals for more than incoming damage to be able stay alive... because what's the point.. granted until the uc3 this isn't true so the proc limiter seems the best fix....I.e. a rollback on the spell pre xmas 2013 this would require 2-3 dru to "chain" skin if your pulls aren't to large and you're good at boxing


Hate I suggested the hit counter be put back long before this thread... It was a better mechanic.. I think removing drake as an unlimited pulling device will even out the field a little

Edit:

Thought...heal over time spells were used for pulling and return to group with pulls because of the low hate generated and the healing while running some true duration hot type spells would make clr shm useful in pull healing along with drake going to a hit counter

Hate, I discussed that with a few guildies (coat of bright lights) I tested it myself I dont know if they did or not, but It does not work like that if thats how it was meant to be, Its had little to no use other than cast on a softie your expecting to get mass agro on for me.

Yep, coat is pretty much useless for me. Never had it delay mobs on a pull.

I'll review it shortly. Realistically, you hit Coat, make your pull by body pulling or taunt pulling (WITHOUT HITTING THEM). Coat of Bright Lights procs mezz on being hit with a limited number of hits. I may increase the number of hits to allow for better control in tight spaces or heavy pulls.

Were either of you striking or AoEing the mobs that you were pulling? Mezz breaks on damage, so that would explain a lot, very quickly.


-Hate

Nope. Pulling by proximity or by 3.0 click (which is single shot agro, not agro over time) and NO AE going (was while running back to the group with mobs on my ass....or, pulling). Even tried it with all DS clicked off (mages and from my loremaster) and didnt work.

I'll review it tonight and test it too. Sorry :-(


-Hate

So 40% increase to druid pack and single target regeneration ya?

New shaman T9+ HoT spell?

Winning!

The increase is to the SINGLE target regen. One can group regen, then single target the tank. A potential HoT for shaman, I'll see what I can do. ;-)


-Hate

Realistically, I will likely close this poll tonight. Right now, number of hits is leading. I will experiment with some cloned versions of Drake on EZ to get a feel for the number of hits. I will be setting my initial ballpark number of hits off of pulling 10 rogue npcs (rogue npcs, after caster changes, received ungodly attack speeds).

Will play with it from there. :-)


-Hate

Makes sense. Thank you much, Hate.

Ok thanks.      So, 40% increase vice the 30% listed?     That would sweet.

Thanks again for taking feedback, it is much appreciated.

Look into hot for clr too please :)