Caster class revisioning

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[Xiggie | Stone]

Throughout the years of everquest you hear mythical stories about an enchanter soloing a dragon or a wizard getting off a superly massively critically explosevely blast and one shotting a huge hp inflated boss. Then a few months later they get nerfed and we are left with these stories about 'prenerf' happenings. This happens for various reason and we could sit here all day and list them all. I prefer to think outside the box. To come up with a new idea, a new solution rather than retweaking this spell or that.

The Problem
Right now there are people complaining about clerics because they lack dynamics, shamans, enchanters and druids because they a main purpose, wizards because they go from shit to it and the list goes on. It seems what one class gets right, another class gets wrong and then some classes can't seem to get anything right. It's almost like they are staying separate classes just to be stubborn. Why, there is no point to it.

Sony almost got it right with the missions they had where you could play a class that nuked like a wizard but also healed. It's like they tripped over an idea but were too busy looking at their own vision to see that they just stumbled onto a good idea.

Now I am not one for class blending, I think there is even post or two here about my not liking class blending. I like having separate roles and jobs. It breeds character pride. My main is a monk, I pull mobs and I dps mobs. In a pinch I can tank a little bit too. But I am not here to manage agro, I am not here to help you heal and the only casting I am going to do is a self buff. And if you catch me self buffing anything other than my 1.0 during a fight I am a little embarrassed about it cause I missed out on half a second of dps. But lets face it here, when was the last time you saw a proud enchanter on this server. Maybe in dulak? Possibly BoT. If you have seen one after then it is less than a handful. And I am not picking on enchanters. The same thing applies to shamans and druids and other caster classes. And what about clerics? The most boring essential class in the game.

What we need to do is totally revision the caster classes. Now I don't mean taking apart how caster classes work in general, but look at how they are defined and separated. Look at their roles and remaster them.

Caster Class Revisioning

Class Blending
Now this will obviously involve class blending, but if done right we can still separate roles of caster classes while introducing a class pride. This would in effect kill the single caster class model. No one would want to be just a cleric when they can be just as much of a cleric but also a wizard. Can't just make those dedicated to a single class more powerful as a benefit because then we have more balancing issues than we already have. But maybe a quest system in the casters guild to get into a specialized caster class system where a cleric can buy wizard spells, (just an example) thereby unlocking their wizard sub class.

Sub Classes
Availability of subclasses would be limited per original class. I say this because you would come up with a master caster class. A combination of character classes would be found to be the best and we would be right back to all caster classes just being one particular class. Right now most of our casters are clerics, if we made it limitless everyone would be a clr/wiz/mag (just a guess). Farther down I will list my suggestions of caster classes that I think would be balanced and good.

Quest and Logistics
Subclass1
To get to your first subclass you would need to collect an item from each T1/2 boss. Kind of like the token system in qvic. Whether they be 100% or ultra rare or somewhere in between that would be Hunter and Bashers call. I do think that the second subclass should be considerably rarer. You would take these tokens to a quest npc in the casters guild who would then do a class check and offer the appropriate options, (classes). You would then select your option and you would get an earring (we have too many damn rings) with a clicky effect that would send you to the appropriate subclass zone. This would be the only way into that zone, (the clicky item).

• Example 1: Say you are a cleric and you chose wizard as your subclass. You would be given an item that would take you to a zone with a vendor that has level 70 wizard spells usable by all classes that are able to have a wizard as a sub class. They would be alternate but duplicate spells that are found on the level 70 spell vendors next to the spell scribe. They would of course be no drop.

Should there ever be caster spells to be added to T1/2 as drops then there would be another npc in that first subclass zone that would accept those wizard spells and convert them into an alternate but duplicate spell with the appropriate classes marked on them but same effects. There would also be an item on the vendor with a clicky of the appropriate 3.0 effect.
Subclass2
There would be yet another npc. This would of course be the npc to get into the second subclass or 'subclass2'. To get into subclass2 you would need to turn in tokens from bosses in T3/4 plus your subclass1 earring. He would then return to you options based off the earring you gave him. (I will use enchanter as my example.) Once you select your options the npc would give you your old earring back plus a new one with a clicky to the subclass2 zone of the class you selected. There would be a vendor in this zone selling an item with the appropriate 4.0 clicky effect. That npc would allow you to turn in the T3/4 enchanter spells and get back alternate but duplicate spells for the appropriate classes.

Class Combinations


Cleric
Cleric/Shaman/Druid
Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter
Cleric/Druid/Enchanter
Cleric/Wiz/Druid
Cleric/Wiz/Enchanter

Shaman
Shaman/Cleric/Druid
Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter
Shaman/Druid/Enchanter
Shaman/Druid/M/N(Mage or Necro)
Shaman/Enchanter/M/N
Shaman/Wiz/Druid
Shaman/Wiz/Enchanter
Shaman/Wiz/M/N

Druid
Druid/Cleric/Shaman
Druid/Cleric/Enchanter
Druid/Shaman/Enchanter
Druid/Shaman/M/N
Druid/Enchanter/M/N
Druid/Wiz/Shaman
Druid/Wiz/Enchanter
Druid/Wiz/M/N

Enchanter
Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman
Enchanter/Cleric/Druid
Enchanter/Shaman/Druid
Enchanter/Shaman/M/N
Enchanter/Druid/M/N
Enchanter/Wiz/Shaman
Enchanter/Wiz/Druid
Enchanter/Wiz/M/N

Mage and Necro (Note: I am not suggesting the combining of Mage and Necro, but they have the same options so I grouped them together.)
M/N/Shaman/Druid
M/N/Shaman/Enchanter
M/N/Enchanter/Druid
M/N/Wiz/Druid
M/N/Wiz/Shaman

As I come up with more I will add to and revise this post. If anyone finds a flaw or a logistical problem with this suggestion please say so. This is an idea in its first incarnation and can change.

[Xiggie | Stone]

Possible placeholder.

[Cracken]

           Wow nice work. I bet your hands hurt as bad as my eyes after reading that lol.  I've seen too where you stated this but if that idea of yours would come around I for one would stop playing Ez. Simply put i don't want to make a cleric to have wizard abilities. Nor would i want to make any other class have anothers abilities. Its going to be hard work but i think every class is going to need to be looked over and given separate abilities based on what job slot they are trying to fill in the group. Class blending just makes me sick to the stomach and its what ruins FF online once you obtain a high enough level.


           Again awesome idea and i hope everyone takes the time to read over your thoughts. But as you said yourself i'm just not a fan of class blending.



Cracken
~GL of Classic Composers

[Isaaru]

I like the idea and with some tweaking it both be fun and work.  However, please don't use the same old boring content.  Make some new content, in new zones, and make the events (not fights) unique.  Same old copy and paste boss styles get old after... oh I don't know...  level 10?

[Mechules]

Really don't mean to jump in here and piss on your Cheerios, but I've been forum jumping cause I've got nada to do at work.


What you've proposed sounds like a complete overhaul of the entire class system of Everquest. Just the details alone make it sound like an entirely different game with its own complex system of functionality. Hunter would pretty much have to rebuild EZ from the ground up to allow multi-classing in the EQ format.

This does not sound like a simple weekend patch. It sounds like a dedicated team of programmers who want to spend a year or so creating their own version of EQ, only to have it go to Quality Assurance and tested by various gamers and be rejected because it's taking away from the whole point of having a EQ Emu/Private server.

Again, I apologize if I sound pessimistic or like I'm bashing you for an idea - and don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it implemented as well, just for gits and shiggles. I just don't think we'd have the resources to do it, and even if we did, the player base may not come off as enthusiastically as you did. =(

[Xiggie | Stone]

I understand my post is long, and the idea needs a lot of tweeking, but you really should read it if you are going to post on it. No where in my post does it say to give all abilities or rebuild a class. All you would have to do is modify a spell to behave like another classes spell. Say your a wizard and you chose cleric as a subclass. On the vendor in your subclass zone there would be a spell called word of vivication. This would actually be a useless wizard spell that is modified to have the effect of word of vivication.

To actually change it so that you become another class while remaining your own class would actually be inventing a whole brand new class, (Wizric?). While I don't doubt there are a few people in the emu project that could do this, it would be a huge undertaking at the core of the game. Even if a suggestion like that is met well it would never take off. It is too much work and too much of a core change to the game.

[Mechules]

I did read it through =) every word of it. I really really like looooong detailed posts, so you kept me entertained. Looks like you put a lot of thought and effort into it. However, don't take offense to this, but it kiiiiiinda sounds a little bit like subclassing in Guild Wars. Kinda. Sorta. Maybe?

I DO understand where you're coming from, but the sheer number of spells that the programmer would have to go through is mind-boggling. Hell, every time I make a new caster class and go to the spell/disc NPC in the glade to get 'em, I start laggin for a few seconds as my chat box gets spammed like crazy. I wanna say it's an average of ~20 pages of spells at 8 spells a page. ~160 spells per class to alter! Whew!

I'm 100% sure that you're thinking of a much more reasonable way to implement this change without having to fix EVERY spell and such... but it's still gonna be a PITA

It seems like there would have to be some serious restrictions in play. If you choose a subclass and are locked out of all the other subclasses' spells/abilities, that concept would be correct. Again, that's more code and programming required just for that one button press. The dynamics of the classes/subclasses would change entirely. But if you just pick a class, and now that class is defined as: "Technically can learn ANY spell in the game, but has an item that restricts him to one zone for spells," then you have to eliminate ALL dropped spells from ALL mobs in the game. There are many other factors you have to look at. (Example: AAs?)

What about armor? Wizzy/Cleric duo is INT vs WIS for casting, isn't it? So you gotta have max INT and WIS? That's tough (well not end game, but you get my point)... would you be able to pick up the Wizzy only gear? Or both the Wizzy and Cleric only gear? ARGH!!!! HAX!

This all would require programming in EQ's code for a whole new setup to the class system. Eventually, after many many many many hours spent recoding an entire base of software, players would find out which is the BEST combo/subclass, and then repopulate the server with THAT subclass, neglecting all the time and effort that the programmers put into it. There's always at least ONE class in MMOs that is more desirable than another =/

Another example. Say someone comes onto the forum and makes a post detailing how we should be able to fly around the map, and even go so far as to detail out an instruction manual on how to control your flight, what zones you can do it in, and what advantages you gain from doing so. The guy could write a book on why flight should be allowed in EQ, but when you look at the flipside, from a programmer's standpoint, it's a fantasy. I wouldn't even know where to begin altering the code for that kind of gameplay. It's a completely different ballpark now, and most likely, a completely different game.

Really dude, I admire you for taking the time to write out a ton of great ideas, and believe me if they would have created EQ2 in that image with the proper planning and layout, I'd have bought it. I'm not trying to bash you or stomp on your ideas... but rather... give you a different standpoint and try to get you to see all sides. I'm sure that the idea sounds AMAZING from the players' standpoints, but to programmers (Hunter), it's just more work that isn't even guaranteed to work or be worth it. If this was implemented wrong at all, players would get pissed and probably stop playing because it's "broken" or "unpolished."

TL;DR: Lots of work + Lots of time + Lots of ideas + Lots of planning/polishing = Brand new game. It wouldn't be EQ/EZ anymore =(  



*******EDITED: to correct my dumb mistakes.

[Strix]

Hey  Xiggie

I think you've got a great idea here -- certainly with a few tweaks (as you've suggested) this idea could work.  It's true I don't know anything about the coding required to make it happen - but given the amount of custom content this server already has I can't imagine that it's out of the realm of being possible.

I have to say, I'm over old school EQ.  I played on P1999 for a week and remembered all the reasons I stopped playing MMO's in the first place.  My sentimental reminiscing of EQ would have stopped in that week had I not stumbled onto this server.  Really, those of you who want to spend a year getting a character to level 50 and join raids of 60+ plus to kill Trakannon will find that p1999 is the best place to relive those days. 

No custom content.  Old-School play.

What's kept me on EZ (and playing EQ) has been a developer's (Hunter's) creative reworking of what (for me) was the best game I ever played.  It's like the EQ I used to know and love but on speed.  The more I play on this server the more I feel that anything is possible with this game. 

For me (11+ years on), I'm excited about the unlocked potential this game has.  Hunter has managed to do what Sony couldn't --> create a version of EQ that captures the spirit of the original game play, but open up a world of possibilities (and recapture a lost market).  I think that makes this sever unique and the most exiting project in the whole EMU community.  Xiggie's suggestion here simply follows (for me) a natural path of EQ evolution.  It attempts to (intelligently) address a problem that even Sony couldn't get right in the end.  It means redefining what we know and understand about this game - and it means opening ourselves up to new and interesting possibilities.

My thoughts anyway
Strix

[Vadeem]

Great post Strix

[Xiggie | Stone]

I think you are missing the point and simplicity of the idea Mech. Let me see if I can break it down for you.

1. Your a wizard, you go and collect tokens from each boss in PoD.
2. You take those tokens and give them to this one particular npc in the guild hall.
3. Upon turning in the last token that npc's hail script is changed for you.
4. You hail that npc and he does a class check and based off that class check he return certain options. Those options are for you to chose a subclass that is available to wizards.
5. Say you chose cleric, he then gives you an item with a right click effect of gate to xxxx zone that has a vendor and a quest npc.
6. The vendor sells spells that are only available from that zone. There might be 5 spells maximum on this vendor. 2 group heals, 1 single target heal, group conviction and DI.
7. Your done with sub class.

You have not changed anything to your class. You can't use cleric aa's. Your mana pool is based off your int still, nothing like that has changed. You don't get all of the cleric spells. You can't wear their gear. You are a wizard. The only thing that happen was you got access to spells that were no where else in the game.  It does not have to be complex. It can be very very simple.

[Fugitive]

Wow, nice Xiggie. That broke it down nice and simple!! It would be cool to see something like this..

[Mechules]

I think you are missing the point and simplicity of the idea Mech. Let me see if I can break it down for you.

1. Your a wizard, you go and collect tokens from each boss in PoD.
2. You take those tokens and give them to this one particular npc in the guild hall.
3. Upon turning in the last token that npc's hail script is changed for you.
4. You hail that npc and he does a class check and based off that class check he return certain options. Those options are for you to chose a subclass that is available to wizards.
5. Say you chose cleric, he then gives you an item with a right click effect of gate to xxxx zone that has a vendor and a quest npc.
6. The vendor sells spells that are only available from that zone. There might be 5 spells maximum on this vendor. 2 group heals, 1 single target heal, group conviction and DI.
7. Your done with sub class.

You have not changed anything to your class. You can't use cleric aa's. Your mana pool is based off your int still, nothing like that has changed. You don't get all of the cleric spells. You can't wear their gear. You are a wizard. The only thing that happen was you got access to spells that were no where else in the game.  It does not have to be complex. It can be very very simple.

AHHHHHHH...

Wow, nice Xiggie. That broke it down nice and simple!! It would be cool to see something like this..

Yes, quite. Me, being the over-thinker that I am, assumed that the long and detailed post you started the thread with would entail a complete overhaul.

So you're just proposing the "Sub-Class" to be all of 6-7 spells max? Pfft. That doesn't sound too bad =P hahaha.

For that, all you'd need is a zone for every caster class, and make all the spells in that zone available to ALL classes, and then upon leaving the zone, have your character flagged and the event removed so that you cannot repeat the quest/instance and become a caster melting pot haha.

Wow. Much easier =P

[barrettd04]

I think you are missing the point and simplicity of the idea Mech. Let me see if I can break it down for you.

1. Your a wizard, you go and collect tokens from each boss in PoD.
2. You take those tokens and give them to this one particular npc in the guild hall.
3. Upon turning in the last token that npc's hail script is changed for you.
4. You hail that npc and he does a class check and based off that class check he return certain options. Those options are for you to chose a subclass that is available to wizards.
5. Say you chose cleric, he then gives you an item with a right click effect of gate to xxxx zone that has a vendor and a quest npc.
6. The vendor sells spells that are only available from that zone. There might be 5 spells maximum on this vendor. 2 group heals, 1 single target heal, group conviction and DI.
7. Your done with sub class.

You have not changed anything to your class. You can't use cleric aa's. Your mana pool is based off your int still, nothing like that has changed. You don't get all of the cleric spells. You can't wear their gear. You are a wizard. The only thing that happen was you got access to spells that were no where else in the game.  It does not have to be complex. It can be very very simple.

I like it.  Reminds me of the jobs system in Final Fantasy Tactics(kinda).

[hateborne]

You have not changed anything to your class. You can't use cleric aa's. Your mana pool is based off your int still, nothing like that has changed. You don't get all of the cleric spells. You can't wear their gear. You are a wizard. The only thing that happen was you got access to spells that were no where else in the game.  It does not have to be complex. It can be very very simple.

Please don't hate me, but honestly I'm afraid. What is going to happen when clerics and their unlimited mana are dropping wizard t3 nukes? If you cut off t3/t4 nuke then wizard class is already totally out. If cleric takes mage spells...lol mage spells, skipping because only pet is worth it (unless t3/t4 changes this). Enchanter buffs might be useful. Necromancer is just amusing. I will say that necro and/or enchanter buffs MIGHT be useful without breaking the game.

I think a more simplistic revision would be to adjust spell costs, make mana actually matter (BUT NOT LIKE WIZARDS PLEASE FFS NO MORE MANASTONE SPAM EVERY CAST), and give them some damage/utility.

Cleric can spam aoe heal and cleanse-like with no detriment. Ok fine, group healer.
Druid's heals are trash. Give the epic a minor cleanse on tick. Say 8 to all. This would allow the druid to tank heal very well.
Shaman need their debuffing goodness. Possibly combine some debuff effects or create some tiered MEGA Debuff (-resists, slow, -damage).
Wizards still need a tier 1 spell and their t4 armor is definitely interesting in the stat lineup.
Enchanters may need a small bit of fresh 70 tweaking (just minor damage increases and resist mod DECREASE). I understand they get very strong later.
Mage could use some similar minor damage and resist mod adjustments (and possibly removing root from higher pets, 3.0+).
Necromancer, same deal. However, possibly allowing Sorcerer's Charm to affect their DoTs would be almost required.


Across the board, (if possible) remove AoE Target Cap limit or bring Angers into the 4 cap limit. This way the warriors can still have their precious op aoe, but be bound by the same ruleset as the rest of the aoe.  >:-D


Yeah, just a thought. Gogo dinner and boredom


-Hateborne





edit: The AoE cap limit was serious, the warrior nerf was a joke. If you play EZ, you know I am against warriors and give them hell. Same as Balthor giving me hell for maining a wizard (or sometimes an SK, i have 0 warriors). This just came up on the giant RECENT column on the left. My apologies for not spending weeks researching each forum post  -.-

[Fugitive]

This was just an idea

See how old this post was?!

This would never happen it would break so much shit it wouldn't even be fun to try to balance it..

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