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Author Topic: Kick Starting the Economy  (Read 21916 times)
Strix
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« on: January 04, 2012, 07:37:55 pm »

Hi All

It seems that:

The EZ Server economy appears to be laboring.

I say as a result of many conversations with players over the last few weeks.  It's easy to log on and see lots of activity in /auction and assume that all is well with the world.  The reality appears to be a lot different. 

Reasoning:
1. Player found/sourced items are almost worthless.  This includes armour, epics and essences.  The only exclusion to this seems to be T5 items.  4.0 kills will periodically go for about 200k - but even these have very few buyers.  Quite simply put - the items are worthless if there are no buyers to buy them.  This seems to be the case.
2.  Zone runs (for plat) don't really exist any more.
3.  SLS and Artisan Seal sales are still present - but a flood of sellers has meant that the ratio of time invested to captial outcome is seriously diminished.

Contributing Factors:
i)  Cost of ore in making essences
ii)  Absence of enough items in the game that lower teir players can sell that higher end players would need (SLSs do this to a degree but there needs to be more variation in the market)
iii) Source of plat for high end players (given the sale of items is no longer generating cash plat) diminishes the higher you go in the game.

Results:
-- High end players have nothing to buy from low end players.  The cost of ore for essences means they keep all their plat and farm all components as needed themselves.  They are at the top end of the game but essentially broke.  This creates a class of players who are just not part of the economics of the game.
-- Middle teir players are using the chase of a UC to generate plat.  They have some need for items being sold by the lower teired players but are starting to learn the economics of the server.
-- Low end players are starting to see the reduction of items selling.  Not sure what the final impact of this will be - if anything.

Solutions?
- More items for the lower teired players to sell to the high/middle level players that they need.  The new item needs to be sourced from many zones (similar to the FG/CG kits) to stop automated farming of the item (eg SLS and Artisan Seals).  Crafter Scepter of Time Level 1 is an example - but too hard for a low end teired player to farm.  Perhaps something linked to an item in T6?

- Have all bosses in T3/4 drop bags of plat

- Increse the amount of plat dropping in T5

Thoughts?
Strix

 
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Ponzi
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 08:30:59 pm »

Well... Yes.

Only 2 things on this server matter. Killing Things Faster (KTF) and Massive Automated Healing (MAH).

Charms are a good example of this.. The sorc charms help to KTF and the oracles help you heal more efficiently via MAH to take on tougher content.

Augs are designed specifically to KTF, It's what they do. They take massive amounts of plat and SLSs and Essences to create. We know this.

Here's where it had messed up the economy:

Lower Tier players (who used to be a source of the charms via /auc) learn earlier on how important it is to KTF and heal more efficiently... Even if they buy runs thru qvic and ldon, they witness firsthand the keys to successL KTF and MAH. So they are far less likely than newer players 6 months ago to sell charms for plat... Why? because they can farm gems for plat.... They need to KTF and have MAH! If they dont have a paladin, they see one in action and immediately roll one. They sprint to PoD for Warrior Augs are start farming their tacvis and drag minors to start KTF.

And it's not entirely their fault. The market for v1s and v2s has disappeared because of Shadow. Higher Tier players can farm cash and tokens and V2s while still chasing their own v1s. And even if they accumulated their excess cash they would save it to buy augment mats to KTF, not charms which they are both already accumulating and, if needed quicker, would jump to ldon anyways to farm themselves while they generate plat + charms instead of losing plat to gain charms. Then they spawn their tokens to get their essences...

OH ALMOST FORGOT. Since the accepted math is 3 essences per 100 bosses spawned in airplane... And gearing a single paladin with 3 fire 5s requires 6 gods minor.. That's 200 bosses spawned to achieve a significant level of KTF for a single toon in a box army. Which is fine if 50 plate, chain, silk, and leather wearing newbies-with-T2-chests (NWTC) are waiting to buy them.

Which they are not. Which is where the system breaks down on a basic level. Even if there was 200 NWTC in the player base online while Uber XX is Fire V'n his paladin, the plate-heavy nature of the server woud probably break it down closer to 110/25/25/40, with silk coming in a distant second, for 200 NWTC. And an ungodly % of those plate wearers are paladins and warriors.

Which brings us to T4. Where stuff that isn't WAR/PAL is barely bothered to be placed in /auc. And ye,s Uber XX is still a mere 200 boss spawns from his one aug'd out paladin. Now he needs NWTCCT3ACATBPOT4A... (Completed T3 and can afford to blow plat on T4 Armor) to help him out when farming his gods majors.

Remember when we used to seriously ponder the merits of a rot bot in t3/t4? Now it wouldn't even matter, because like the Shadow/CompletelyEpic3.5BookRottingFCFS phenomenon.. No one would even bother to use it since it isnt in demand. Most people spawning bosses are just click deleting the armor to reduce lag anyways, or gearing up a druid just to claim they have one ready for T6.

In theory you're supposed to accumulate the essences while you gear up your toons. I get that.. That isn't whats happening.. And the need for people looking to KTF to liquify T3/T4 is trivializing another level of content for NWTC.

And that has sucked demand completely dry for t3/t4 armor. There's positively no difference between me sitting in T3/T4 farming essences and if the essences were found in the Hidden Bankquet (jesus god hunter don't do that, just an example plz Tongue).. Except the fact that farming T3/T4 I can read a book or watch a movie or chase squirrels outside in my yard while the magic happens.

Player to player interaction in the economy outside of randoms /cheering everytime i kill a  mob in public and wait for the rot call in /ooc is basically non-existant at this point. Players have little to nothing to offer other players, and certainly no reason to not just sink their plat into ore to KTF using their MAH machine in the first place.

And yeah, i'm just illustrating the problem and not offering a solution, but it is what it is. I'm up for some good ideas. T4 bosses could drop 100k pp per kill and that plat would still be dropped right back into Crafted Ore anyways and wouldnt do a thing for the economy..  unless you believed in Trickle-Down in the 80s. Wink
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Fugitive
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 08:55:07 pm »

Perhaps something linked to an item in T6?




I understand what you are trying to help and get some support for.. but I tire of being end game having to do something from T-0.5

More Treadmills probably isn't the right choices.. Maybe drop the No-Drop Tag from Qvic-T3, Hell that might not be a great idea also. T6 is already going to be a Repeat grind with all the new combines that you have to get over and over and over and over again to make your armor then to make your augs then to make the UC2 and all the the other over and over and over and over and over.

Again, the biggest problem with what I see atm is patience everyone wants now now now..

We are in vent discussing this post atm, there are many things that can break and make and re-break and so on.. This is a challenge period but again players want to make a million a night...

One more thing, The end game players don't have anymore cash to give when they are spending and saving 40 million plus on Aug stuff.. There isn't this magic cash. The problem really is in the cost of the Aug stuff... (its a win/lose) its a good aug slightly needed but expensive.. which requires a grind..

I got money but the only person getting right now is that devil of a crafting vendor.


This is no way bitching or complaining just some of my thoughts.. don't take it wrong
This is no way the end all be all, just thoughts..

Gems or more bags of pp from T5
Gems or bags of PP from T3/T4 bosses
Qvic - T3 Bind on Equip (use that Auction house)
HoH Augs Bind on Equip (use that Auction house)

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 09:00:38 pm by Fugitive » Logged


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curator
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 09:11:01 pm »

You both are right.  But I think Fugitive hit it.  All the top tier money doesnt trickle down.  It goes to vendors.  The only way to fix that is to add a crafting system where players can make the stuff that high tier players need so a player can be t1, but make something a t5 would use.  But that would require a lot of work I think so I think this is just something that will be ever-present
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Udeni
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 09:28:58 pm »

A really good way of making it so the lowbies can make shit the higher ups want is make it so you can combine essences to make the next level essence. Like 2-4 qvic make a tacvi, 2-4 tacvi make a dragon minor, etc. The numbers would need tweaking, and things like that, but IMO its a good way of doing it. Gives qvic essences a use other than crafted armor (lol) and makes it so the people who can't do t1 quite easily enough, or don't have the time to farm super hard, can just go slam out some easy things to get to make the harder things. Of course it would take A LOT of the easy things, but it gets up there.
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Xiggie | Stone
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 12:28:07 am »

Making essences combinable to the next level would make it so someone from qvic could just farm qvic and end up with lvl 5+ augs. I think that would be a very wrong thing to do and I seriously doubt Hunter would ever go for that.

I do think it would be a really good idea to drop the no drop tag on qvic through T2 armor and make it attunable. I would also love to see the lore tag and no drop tag taken off V1 charms. Make them stackable and tradeable. Those would be a good way to link the upper tiered players and lower tiered players.

All those things said, I still don't think the economy is broken though. I've seen the economy transform from one thing to another, hell I saw it when it first started out. The economy is still there, it's just changing. I do think that some of the aug mats from the vendors could do with a reduction in price especially now since the exploit plat has been fixed and is making its way out of the economy. Hell I wouldn't be suprised if that was the reason it was set high in the first place.
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stad
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 12:31:45 am »

if you want a plat sink use a casino. Not lower the drop percentage of certain items. I still remember the first days of Eq live where the casino opened. Man it was hilarious.
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wolfegunr
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 07:37:27 am »

How about we take the ridiculously priced aug mats (which were designed to get the money out of the market when people were exploiting and was wildly successful) off the vendor and make them rare drops in a mid-tier accessable zone?  Require 3.0 flag, and have it be say kaesora or something as a rare drop, as rare as a charm on ldon 1-5 for example. Make it tradeable. Mobs should be as hard as Ldon6 or so.
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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul.
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 08:03:18 am »

First - I love reading Ponzi's posts - thanks Ponzi - and I do take great advantage of your T3/T4 rot sells - this is Bane, btw and thank you.

Wolf has a great idea! You can knock off 100k-1 mil on the price of the augs by making the ore drop off mobs. It would be nice to have another LARGE zone to play in as well. Of course, that probably takes the most amount of work to accomplish AND I wouldn't make them nearly as rare at v1 augs - holy shizza UC farming sucks!

BTW - I agree with Xiggie as well - I don't think this economy is broken. I am fairly new - have a couple months under my belts but having grown up in this economy I think its hard but fair.

I farm the crap out of FG/CG stuff (during the day hours) and try to sell 1 each night - thats 300k pp a day that can be made. If I spent an hour farming wisps, I could sell an SLS for 50k. You can trade an SLS for a Tacvi essence (since those seem the hardest for me to get) and I can start augging my army - which is going to suck.

One thing I love about the state of the current economy is that you all ARE very generous to me and the Bane Army and I wouldn't be moving up without your t3/t4 gifts and cheap buys. I try to do the same and I won't sell t1/t2 rots - its a simple FFA.
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Noel
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 10:45:36 am »

What if certain items for high level zones dropped in LEVEL restricted zones such as Dulak? Farming them for sale becomes almost impractical, since you would have to de-level the toon using RoA or make a new one every time you are over the limit.

This way only lower level players can get them and higher level ones are forced to buy them, since they can't blast through a zone AE killing everything in one shot.

In fact, it would be great if SOME FG/CG kit items could be only gotten in level restricted zones. Take Unrest for example - you don't have to be lvl 70 to kill the ghost and he is an easy kill even at lvl 35 with Epic 1.0.

The biggest farm in game is Lower Guk - why not make it lvl 45-60 only? Now running through the zone from camp to camp is actually slightly dangerous and one can't go AFK for an hour with auto-attack ON...

Just a thought....
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Xiggie | Stone
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 11:32:13 am »

First and foremost you could turn aa exp on and have an alt or even an alt army to farm the lower lvl zones that are lvl restricted. Even if you made it 49 max it would be easier for me to have a toon with the best gear I could get on him (crafted from crafters guild) to go in and pulverize the zone to get my drops rather than wait for a noob to get a hugely highly sought after item. Personally I think prices would go higher than what they are on the vendor. I think trying to level lock something like this would backfire.
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Noel
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 12:26:06 pm »

hmm you are right, one can stop from leveling by kicking in AA exp...

In that case it has to be zones like Epic 2.5 Hushed Banquet where it just takes time and no amount of special gear can help you. M

Or maybe make a zone where one must enter with no gear at all....?



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Fugitive
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 12:34:06 pm »


This way only lower level players can get them and higher level ones are forced to buy them



This statement alone negates the idea, I still understand what you are saying but "Force" is the wrong way to get the economy going. Heavily desired items can do this but when you keep adding the streamlined Tier levels will require this from this high end tier and then something from low end tier. Again, why would I waste my $ that I'm going to buy augs with since its such a drain and get that item I would just roll another goon or work  with the guild to supply all my guildmates said items. ( I'm not leaving my Tier advancement in anyone's hands except my guildmates and me. ) If you get what I'm saying

The problem is there really isn't any PP in game unless you drag-grind for it... then it goes right back into the vendor not the system.. so this forces everyone to drag-grind for it.


Gems or more bags of pp from T5
Gems or bags of PP from T3/T4 bosses
Qvic - T3 Bind on Equip (use that Auction house)
HoH Augs Bind on Equip (use that Auction house)


« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 01:13:13 pm by Fugitive » Logged


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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 01:07:06 pm »

I like to imagine myself being on the cast of "Deadliest Catch" and got out in my little boat grinding away at catching gems to afford the meager supplys for my next trip out, So far i am making the boat payments fine and even can afford a new aug for my boat once in awhile. If more people had a active imagination and could do the same the pain of the grind wouldnt be so bad. (The thousand mile stare i recieved from LDoN after my first 4 UC's doesnt hurt either) I think the Bazaar thing sounds like a heck of a deal though if it doesnt use too much space on the server.
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Fugitive
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 01:13:53 pm »

I would make more and more alts but do not want to grind T2/T1 out haha
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Quoted for the Brotherhood of Warriors
"I want my wizard to cast Fugitives instead of fireballs.
We can't always get what we want. ;-)"
-Hate"
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