[POLL] Tank Stonewalls

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[hateborne]

PLEASE READ THIS THROUGH BEFORE VOTING! I UNDERSTAND THIS IS GOING TO BE UNPOPULAR AND WILL GET HEATED!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be constructive and cite specific examples. Posts considered trolling will be completely ignored. *plead*
If you dislike any of the options, explain why you dislike them. It is only through useful discussion that good ideas come about!

EDIT: THESE ARE NOT GOING LIVE NOR ARE THEY EVEN PLANNED! STOP EMAILING ME!


1) Lower the Warrior Stonewall by somewhat. Still higher than SK or Paladin, but not quite so extreme.

2) Bump up the Paladin and SK Stonewalls a bit more.

3) Bump up Paladin Stonewall, convert SK into super high HP (little/no Stonewall) tap-tank

4) Leave it be, it's "working as intended"


I am slightly concerned with the tanks and tankage. I would like to see something change, but I want to get outside opinions and (maybe) Hunter's thoughts on this. My reasons for this is the sheer number of mobs being pulled, the reliance on a warrior, and the future of content. Maybe the knights were never intended as tanks, which means that maybe we should consider removal of tanking abilities and possibly allow a charm trade in a few months for some of us to move to THE tank class (if it is intended to be the solo tanking class).


I have made 5 suggestions above, I will attempt briefly explain them all:

1) I believe that the warrior stonewall is too high (both in comparison to the knights and in terms of planning content). As it stands right now, I am seeing lots of one rounding of any non-tank in T5 and T6. Mind you, not every character I have is UC'ed, but surely having an add pop and instagib one of my goobers is unintentional. At the rate it is now, T7 (or maybe higher) it will become 100% one round on anything that isn't a tank. I would not like to see the game become this way, but maybe it's just a personal preference. I would guesstimate the lowering amount to be somewhere between 8-10%

2) This will work if warrior Stonewall is desired at such a high value. I am suggesting another 5-10% to Paladin and 10-20% (matching the Stonewalls for SK and Paladin). This would bring the knights into slightly less jittery and slightly more AFK state (similar to warriors). This makes the knights stronger, but still doesn't address the issue of the NPC damage simply being higher than any non-tank being able to withstand (i.e. surviving 1 hit).

3) I have suggested this before, but got very mixed answers. Paladins would still see 5-10% Stonewall raise, Shadowknights would lose their Stonewall, and Shadowknights HP on Tier'ed items and epics would increase heavily. Paladins would be above Shadowknights in effective health, but below in literal health. This makes SKs vulnerable to spike damage, but makes them ideal for purely magic bosses (which should start reappearing).

4) Simply put, everything is fine, leave it be. I do NOT agree with this options.

5) If there is something else to be put or explained, please select option 5 and post your suggestion.


This has come up in numerous other threads in bits and pieces. This is not a rip/hate on warriors, just trying to clear up some of the confusion. If warriors are THE intended tank (as in required to progress), let's set a date, remove knights' threat generation, and allow tradable charms for ~48h on that date so we can all move the charms off to the true tank. If the knights were intended to be tanking alternative to warriors, great...but I would say a small amount of adjustment should be considered.


Seriously, thank you for making it this far in reading. <3


-Hate

[Xiggie | Stone]

Toons that don't have a UC in T5 and T6 should be instagib'd if they catch wild agro or happen on the wrong side of the mob. The more you prepare for a zone the more reliable your group should be. Trying to balance content where people who don't have the UC would make things extremely trivial for those who do.

I have tanked in T6 with a UC'd paladin with a lvl 59 ring and T5 gear. Granted it is touch and go but it can be done. Can I pull like a warrior? No, and I shouldn't be able to. Is my warrior going to heal the group? Absolutely not. And he shouldn't be able to. I've seen SK's tank in T5 and T6 in comparable gear to my paladin with about the same effectiveness, (maybe a little bit more reliably).

Knight classes are still viable tanks, they are good in the off tank capacity that I think they were designed for. Without warriors being a good leap ahead like they are then there is absolutely no point in using a warrior to tank. Before warriors got bumped up, when T6 first came out I tanked T6 with my paladin because I could fit more dps and get the same tankability without my warrior.

I am 100% against washing the warrior class down by blending in knight classes by either lowering warrior SW, raising knight SW or raising SK hp and tap. I do not think that we should just take away hate generation and other tank qualities of the night classes just because they can't tank like a warrior. They are still viable tanks like they are. You could very well go entirely through all content without ever having a warrior in your group. You just won't be able to pull like a warrior. You could definitely go through content without a warrior much much much easier than you could go through without a paladin.

[Felony]

I am 100% against washing the warrior class down by blending in knight classes by either lowering warrior SW, raising knight SW or raising SK hp and tap. I do not think that we should just take away hate generation and other tank qualities of the night classes just because they can't tank like a warrior. They are still viable tanks like they are. You could very well go entirely through all content without ever having a warrior in your group. You just won't be able to pull like a warrior. You could definitely go through content without a warrior much much much easier than you could go through without a paladin.

I 100 % agree with Xiggie. Knights tank just fine. Adding a agro reduction to the paladin epic in my opinion is dumb as shit and the SK just as well as paladins do because of their taps/clicks and I do not think they need more HP on their gear.

I also agree that people need to prep for the zone they are going into. UC was not intended for T1-4 as a must have item and you can do those tiers with out it but it pretty much became required on your tanks for T5+ and most players in T6 have UC'd every goon they have. A lot of current T5 people have as well.

If anything you should look at AC. Hunter set AC per tier to a set level and it never changed because back in the day it hit a cap and did nothing. That has not been the case for some time and if you want to bump something you should consider AC.

Lowering warrior stonewall based on a handful of people having "the clickies" is bad idea as well. Just because the top 2% of the server can reach near invicible status stacking stonewall effects does not mean its broken because the other 98% are not at that level.
By T9, assuming we get a new tier per year, that might change to be more like 15-30% reach those levels.

Balancing content is hard and sucks but to balance based on the minority of the server is the best way to ruin a fun place.

Also we have shield of the ages and ROA500 to work on. Getting shield to 30 is pretty easy for anyone to do, just farm the mold,SLS and essences required. 31-40 is harder and paced good. Thanks to the change to how ROA works there is no reason no one can not obtain a decent level on that item for *ALL* of their goons. Plus it looks like raid exp modifier got boosted so you can go raid your content to gear up and actually get some AA. Not great aa but shit its better then before by a long shot.

FYI I generally (98%) approve of your changes and ideas but some times you leave me scratching my head asking what your smoking and where can i get some.

[hateborne]

Ok, so T5+ the UC should be considered a requirement on all characters. I am running without a paladin or warrior, but I am merely curious. I..as much as I will loathe it...likely have to start a warrior to make sure my understanding is entirely correct. Although I joke about the warriors and occasionally destroy their gear in instanced zones, I do not actually despise the class. I just dislike the fact that it is significantly overplayed.

Another unpopular question is about the Stonewall on Halloween pets. My overall goal is to get the Stonewall total less.

I also need to clarify that I did not mean to lower the warrior's 100% uptime Stonewall into "on par" with SKs or paladins. With cleric temporary buffs, the "max possible" would be a bit closer. Without cleric temporary buffs, the 100% uptime would be much closer.

Either way, just thoughts/ideas. Thank you for the input Xiggie. Fugitive able to chime/troll in?

-Hate

[marxist]

Knights never were able to compete with warriors. Warriors without uc2, shield, and Halloween pets die quite a bit in t6 if they don't manage pulls and adds well. Nerfing will needlessly make things harder on newer players. I also don't see the point in buffing paladins as they have a defined role and are good at it. I could see doing something small to help sks....but everyone knew when they rolled an skin that they don't tank as well as warriors.  You using multiple healers hate? Most people are using 1 cleric and 2 paladins in their tank group @ t6 levels.

[Xiggie | Stone]

I have suggestions but will have to add later. Heading out.

[wolfegunr]

We do not need to make charms tradable. We have known warriors are the true tanks for quite sometime...also....anyone T5 should know you need uc on every toon period to consistantly survive.
Warriors are the true tanks this is as it has always been in any mmo its the whole point of the class. Knights do make decent offtanks and should be decent offtanks, especially SKs since they cant heal the group.
Instead of nerfing warriors or knights lets simply keep these things in mind as we move into the next tier. It should not be geared to the top of the top gear. Halloween pets for example were a very limited time offer, shield 40 is a very hard to get item as is ucv2. Scepter 10 is certainly not had by everyone. T7 should not only be survivable by those with all of these things. Things will be easier for people with all of these toys and should be, they earned them with many, many....MANY hours of gameplay. Hundreds of hours poured into the game to be top form.
I do, however, feel that monks should be able to avoid damage better. They hit so fast as soon as they encounter a ds their tier they die, and they cant take hits well at all even with full ucv2 tier 6 6.0s in T6. Top gear and optional gear...still big pussies. Something is amiss there.
As for wizzies and rogues dying the moment they get aggro, this is pretty much as it should be. Rogues should take a hit or two like monks but wizzies should fall over dead the moment a mob even looks at them funny.
Not to hate on wizzies or nothing......

[huffdady]

I choose up the sk/pally stonewall, if you choose the sk life tap an tank,  there needs to be an aoe lifetap added.  

I really hope you don't get rid of sk/pally tanks.  You need to allow people to play more than one class as a tank.  You have more than 1 type of healer right?  LOL

[hateborne]

I 100 % agree with Xiggie. Knights tank just fine. Adding a agro reduction to the paladin epic in my opinion is dumb as shit and the SK just as well as paladins do because of their taps/clicks and I do not think they need more HP on their gear.

You misunderstand my intentions with this one. The problem here was that the paladin proc was generating HORRIFIC amounts of threat.

For example, let's say Holy Knight Strike 4.0 and Holy Knight Recourse 4.0 proc/trigger. It does 2500 dmg, then 4500-4800 healing. That's 2500 + (4500 * group members) = threat. Let's assume that we have 6 players and we'll assume "in the middle" proc value.
2500 + (4650 * 6) = 30400 possible threat per proc.
Now let's add in a UC, bringing proc to 10000 and healing to 31500 - 33600.
10000 + (32550 * 6) = 205300 possible threat per proc

Now this seems ungainly high, but keep in mind that the warrior epics add an aggro mod of 30-70% more threat generated.

Considering the bit above, threat roll overs should be noted and people healing with paladins experiencing "overthrows" in "on-par" situations.




As for the balancing around those with Halloween pets, I'm trying not to do so. The problem is that the pets are too extreme to simply ignore. Unless a hardcap is set somewhere in the code (i.e. maximum Stonewall that will apply), then it is ALWAYS something to be mindful of in adding new toys.

Balthor, thank you for the post. :-)

-Hate

[Natedog]

Warrior in tank mode

• Almost no DPS
• High tank status

Paladin in tank mode

• Decent Group heals (not nearly as good as 2hder pally)
• Around 350k DPS
• Medium tank status

Shadowknight in tank mode

• Extreme self heals
• A bit over 350k+ dps
• Medium to low tank status

Non-tanks getting squished in top tier content was fairly normal on Live .. I don't see why it should be much different on EZ.


As for EZ server though... its obviously different than live was. Here is how I see things...

Fresh team of T5 5.0s enters T6 ....

• Tank gets spanked like a girl
• Non-tanks are squish

That same Team progresses for awhile.... now fully geared in T6 gear

• Tank is very stable in HP / survivability
• Non-tanks CAN live through being hit

My crew is as progress as I can go currently.. and at first T6 gangbanged anything that wasn't a tank... which seemed "normal" too me.
Now that all my crew members have over 500,000 HP + ... I almost never see a non-tank get 1 shot.


I do not think the Warrior stonewall should go up anymore at all and if it is nerfed.. not so much that its pointless to bring a warrior and better off using the knights who already have more DPS / other utility.


It seems more and more that UC is required for T5++  -- even on non-tanks.

[hateborne]

Knights never were able to compete with warriors. Warriors without uc2, shield, and Halloween pets die quite a bit in t6 if they don't manage pulls and adds well. Nerfing will needlessly make things harder on newer players. I also don't see the point in buffing paladins as they have a defined role and are good at it. I could see doing something small to help sks....but everyone knew when they rolled an skin that they don't tank as well as warriors.  You using multiple healers hate? Most people are using 1 cleric and 2 paladins in their tank group @ t6 levels.

Heh if warriors are dying that hard, try SKs or Paladins.

I am using one healer, but my problem (SK with UCv2 and SoA XL) is simply one rounding. I take my entire health bar worth of damage in a bad round. This isn't to crucify warriors, this is to improve the disgusting amount of damage taken to account for the warrior's stonewall.

We do not need to make charms tradable. We have known warriors are the true tanks for quite sometime...also....anyone T5 should know you need uc on every toon period to consistantly survive.
Warriors are the true tanks this is as it has always been in any mmo its the whole point of the class. Knights do make decent offtanks and should be decent offtanks, especially SKs since they cant heal the group.
Instead of nerfing warriors or knights lets simply keep these things in mind as we move into the next tier. It should not be geared to the top of the top gear. Halloween pets for example were a very limited time offer, shield 40 is a very hard to get item as is ucv2. Scepter 10 is certainly not had by everyone. T7 should not only be survivable by those with all of these things. Things will be easier for people with all of these toys and should be, they earned them with many, many....MANY hours of gameplay. Hundreds of hours poured into the game to be top form.
I do, however, feel that monks should be able to avoid damage better. They hit so fast as soon as they encounter a ds their tier they die, and they cant take hits well at all even with full ucv2 tier 6 6.0s in T6. Top gear and optional gear...still big pussies. Something is amiss there.
As for wizzies and rogues dying the moment they get aggro, this is pretty much as it should be. Rogues should take a hit or two like monks but wizzies should fall over dead the moment a mob even looks at them funny.
Not to hate on wizzies or nothing......

The DPS classes I am not worried about as much. I have built in many toys to help give all classes SOME form of mitigation or defense. I am just trying to get a feel for the environment. As stated above though, those with Halloween pets cannot be ignored as some of them are nigh invulnerable. Yes they worked hard for such toys, but is near (or might-as-well-be) invulnerable really acceptable?

-Hate

[Natedog]

Ok, so T5+ the UC should be considered a requirement on all characters. I am running without a paladin or warrior

-Hate

Paladins are 100% not needed .. clerics are GODS when it comes to healing. They are by far the best thing on EZ. Get your cleric an Ultimate Charm and it will make your life 100x better in T5-T6 content.


Cleric  > ALL!

[hateborne]

Warrior in tank mode

• Almost no DPS
• High tank status

Paladin in tank mode

• Decent Group heals (not nearly as good as 2hder pally)
• Around 350k DPS
• Medium tank status

Shadowknight in tank mode

• Extreme self heals
• A bit over 350k+ dps
• Medium to low tank status

...omitted...

It seems more and more that UC is required for T5++  -- even on non-tanks.

Valid points and this is why I started the thread. I typo'ed a Kraken change and ever crapped brick houses. I am not touching this one anytime soon, but I wanted to get a feel from others on how they felt or how to approach this.

Warriors can keep 76% Stonewall all the time (assuming toys), 59% assuming no Halloween.
Paladins can keep 45% Stonewall all the time (assuming toys), 28% assuming no Halloween.
Shadowknights can keep 35% Stonewall all the time (assuming toys), 18% assuming no Halloween.


Maybe the issue here is the Halloween pets being too strong?
Maybe there should be a hardcap of 75-80% Stonewall (meaning after this point, it assumes 75% or 80% and ignores values over it)?

-Hate

[Natedog]

Heh if warriors are dying that hard, try SKs or Paladins.

I am using one healer, but my problem (even with UCv2 and SoA XL) is simply one rounding. I take my entire health bar worth of damage in a bad round. This isn't to crucify warriors, this is to improve the disgusting amount of damage taken to account for the warrior's stonewall.

Wait? What the hell is 1 rounding a UCv2 SoA XL tank?  

If you pull with ranged item (bow or throwing) you can mostly solo pull all of T6.  I've seen lesser geared SKs with the new stonewall able to tank just nicely in T6 when they go slow.

[wolfegunr]

I dissagree that they are near invulnerable at their level. Top tier with all optional toys yes they tank really well and all current content should be easy...that means they are very well prepared for T7.  You seem to be looking at the most extreme cases as others have pointed out.

T6 will be made easier for middle of the road toons as has always been done once T7 is out.

On a side humor note....As for your cleric, first of all...it should be considered blashemy right off that you put that on a cleric. All toons should be nuked for 2 mil upon entering the zone just for that. Hard to believe a cleric with unreal shitty melee skills could die that fast with such gear.

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