[POLL] Tank Stonewalls

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[hateborne]

Wait? What the hell is 1 rounding a UCv2 SoA XL tank?  

If you pull with ranged item (bow or throwing) you can mostly solo pull all of T6.  I've seen lesser geared SKs with the new stonewall able to tank just nicely in T6 when they go slow.

Heh the bosses. To be fair, I could complain and throw in "it was the lag". I do seriously die in one round on some of the bosses. I have an enchanter mezzing EVERYTHING that pulls and downing things one at a time. I may not be running a warrior, but I'm not too stupid. :-)


-Hate

[Natedog]

Ah I see why now.. heh.  When we first "broke" into T6 we used at least 2 tanks. 1 for boss and 1 to handle adds.. especially on the 5th boss!


5th boss will dispel your stonewall ... so hes a real bitch.. and spawns 4 adds unlike the other bosses that only spawn 2.


Once we got better gear obviously we started using 1 tank for a full clear.. but that took awhile.

[hateborne]

Ah I see why now.. heh.  When we first "broke" into T6 we used at least 2 tanks. 1 for boss and 1 to handle adds.. especially on the 5th boss!


5th boss will dispel your stonewall ... so hes a real bitch.. and spawns 4 adds unlike the other bosses that only spawn 2.


Once we got better gear obviously we started using 1 tank for a full clear.. but that took awhile.

I cleared up to Administrator Charial before instance broke (sadface). I had zero wipes up to that point. I came close a few times, but never wiped. He spawned tons of adds, had some AoE mess, and two of his adds had pops.

I finally said "FFS RAGEBOMB", activated Intensity of the Resolute x7, watched him melt. That was the end of my T6 incursion.

Btw, 1000th post wewt yeah.

-Hate

[Natedog]

From a tank perspective -- the 3 bosses OMM / AMV / Administrator Charial  -- should really use at MINIMUM 2 tanks for players breaking into T6.

So trying to balance tanks around being able to break into T6 and solo tank everything.. would make things too easy for anyone using more than 1 tank heh

[hateborne]

From a tank perspective -- the 3 bosses OMM / AMV / Administrator Charial  -- should really use at MINIMUM 2 tanks for players breaking into T6.

So trying to balance tanks around being able to break into T6 and solo tank everything.. would make things too easy for anyone using more than 1 tank heh

Maybe, but I'm not balancing or attempting or theorizing around it. I am talking big picture. :-)

-Hate

[Ybik]

If you are worried about mobs one-shotting a knight and want to lower warrior stonewall in order to be able to lower mob dps then I think knights stonewalls should be lowered by a similar percent (both being lowered the chance of a 1 shot would go down on mights since the stonewall % would be lower to begin with). If tank changes are going to be made it really needs to be done in a way that isn't going to screw everyone over that has a warrior as a tank because if there is just a nerf to warriors its really going to look like the only reason this became a problem is because *YOUR* SK is having trouble in T6. I don't pretend to know Hunters intent but the original design for EQ (at least through PoP) had warriors being the top tank period. Knights were good for off tanking etc but your raid always wanted a warrior as the MT if possible.

I know T6 is doable with a non-warrior tank (it will probably get harder to do as the tiers get higher) but as with everything if you tone down the content to the lowest denominator (or in this case the lower tank) it will be trivial to those with the optimal setup (or if they are close enough then there will be no reason to run a warrior as they can't group or self heal).  There may be a balancing act that can be done between mob dps and stonewall effects while still letting the Halloween pets be strong maybe something along the lines of:

Warrior max stonewall 35% total, Paladin 25% less than a warrior (26%) SK 15% lower than a paladin (22%)

Currently (if my math is correct) lets say a a paladin/warrior/SK have 100hp. A mob would have to do 300 damage (420x.24=100., I multiplied by .24 because the warrior mitigates 76% or 319.2 out of 420, to one-shot a warrior, 182 damage (182*.55=101) to one-shot a paladin and 155 damage (155*.65=100.75) to one-shot a SK.

With a lower amount of overall mitigation the numbers get closer.  Warrior 35%= 155 damage to be oneshot, Paladin @ 25%=134 damage, SK @ 22%= 129 damage. As I said there is still a benefit for a warrior with this scenario but it would allow paladins and SK's a better chance at tanking.

I don't know if those numbers are anywhere near what they would need to be but with an appropriate decrease in mob dps, I'm sure the numbers could be worked out. I don't know how this would effect a lower tier person tanking a higher tier (aka would it be too easy for a t3 tank to tank t4 since the mobs DPS would be decreased, HP wouldn't need to be nearly as high to withstand tanking).

As for transferring UC's, if this is allowed it should be allowed for any character for the time frame. Its not really fair to allow those that picked a knight as a tank to transfer their UC to a warrior while saying "f-u" to those that spent the time to UC a warrior. I also don't know if there would be an easy way to ensure that UC's were not being "sold" but if there is then maybe we could allow the transfer of a UC once per year (christmas or summer time) in order to allow people to try out a new class without having to do yet another UC.

[Bobbin]

Hate,

I left EZ server for an extended break in January of this year. Almost no one played a warrior. I returned in August and now nearly everyone does. The Warrior's enormous drawbacks were finally countered by the ability to survive noticeably better than any other class. Warrior mitigation should remain where it is, relative to the other 'tank' classes, in my opinion.

Regarding toons dying to rampage, I can a.p.p.r.e.c.i.a.t.e. that frustration. I went through T5 with WAR CLR PAL PAL BRD SHM, which is retardedly heavy on heals and I still managed to lose a goon to rampage every 3 or 4 corals. Despite the annoyance, I believe that is how it should be when moving into new content. Again, in T6 I lost dps classes with regularity (particularly my non-UC goons) to rampage, until I completed their gear sets.

Your concern over support goons dying to rampage is understandable. However, most of the people pushing the limits are already sporting Halloween pets on their core ensemble. Plus, many classes have their own mitigation abilities and spells. And I believe we all have you to thank (profusely!) for Song of the Wee (and future ranks??? ).

I respect the notion that people should play what makes them happy. What I have found is that most of the people who swim against the current get exceptionally frustrated and bitter while everyone else races past enjoying themselves. Try a warrior. You'll love the feeling of power.

[Griz]

Lower warriors by 10% or so and reduce mob max hits to compensate so they take roughly the same damage.

The only real issue is badly geared warriors being able to tank mobs that would one round a much better geared knight, and that issue is really only apparent when gearing up on tier bosses or breaking into T5.

Yeah warriors need more maintenence, but the random "lol you die" because something flurried and rampaged on the same round for more than your total health even with a UC, Shaman Buff, Shield 20+, and Crab is lame. For a SK at least, the whole idea is you watch your health and tap back when you take a big hit, which you just can't do when even with full T4, a 4.0, all hp augs, and a UC still leaves you with ~240k hp unbuffed.

[Aggressive]

Whats the point of being a warrior if they can be replaced by a higher dps tank class?

[hateborne]

Ybik, I am not doing this due to my SK having issues. I am somewhat overgeared to be considered a fair break in. I understand that warriors were the "go to" tanks in live...but EZ isn't live. I am not trying to target warriors because they are better than my tank. I am trying to target warriors (and tanking as a whole) because the numbers are slightly too high. The physical damage is somewhat survivable once a non-tank outgears the current tier. This trend will not continue for long, as eventually the total HP will fall well below the damage dealt in another tier or two. The picture below is linked from one of Hunter's posts on the max theoretical Stonewalls.



So I'm completely clear, I appreciate the input Ybik. It is crucial on issues like this.

Bobbin, I don't recall mentioning rampage anywhere. I am dying to explosive rounds of damage and sit fairly high on the gear totem pole. I can still obviously make do as I am too stubborn to simply quit. I don't want to try a warrior simply because it's easier. If the warrior is THE tank to be had on EZ, we should eventually ween knights out of tanking (imo!).

Griz, I have a small issue with warriors requiring more maintenance. On threat generation, maybe. Since warrior's Stonewall can be cast and then swapped over to a higher HP setup, that seems curious to me. I could not cast a huge mitigation on SK and then swap back to sword/board (I don't have any high end stonewall though). As for the SK "tap it back", that's why (if it gains enough footing) I would like to see the SK hp jump a bit. To tap tank, one needs enough HP to actually withstand damage. Just a note though.

Aggressive, maybe a damage increase should be considered. A trade off, so to speak. If changes were to occur, warriors would still be the best choice for tanking. Right now though, the Stonewalls have gotten completely out of hand. If we set a Stonewall cap, all stonewall past X% is useless (which could theoretically phase out warriors if this is easily met). If we lower Stonewalls on the warrior front, everyone stays a bit closer to the same threshold. If we lower the Stonewalls across the board, things should become more manageable.


Thanks for the input to all that contributed and thanks for not tossing out any trolling or garbage posts. Keep it coming. No changes are being made, this is mainly a theorycraft and discussion on how to handle this.

-Hate

[Fugitive]

...
/sigh

okay let me explain something Hate,

My warrior yes Fugitive while breaking into T5/T6 died almost every encounter with 3 Fucking healers and all have UCs...

My warrior yes Fugitive in tank mode has 28k DPS !

My warrior yes Fugitive still REQUIRES 1+ Healers to keep him up

My Pallys (x alot) and my 2 SKs which have mostly UCV2s and UC nothing less can sit there and solo End game period!


The problem is the amount of Damage the high end mobs hit for and Used to Riposte for .

Brokyn's Idea back in FEB12 about the 2hd Warrior Epic saved the class period (I drooled the T6 rezzing every encounter if there was a 2 mob Pull DEAD... Off Tanking was a must, Severs(FP) and Rage+Camric+Pimpn Gimped through T6 wiping wiping wiping.

I'm tired of everytime I fucking log on the forums I see a fucking Nerf this nerff that..

Warriors need another PC to keep them alive period.
Knights can sit there and solo (Above Average DPS + WAY to high Current Mitigation)

I still don't understand the reason for this post.

If you want to "Fix Shit" Start with Negotiation with the Boss man about the Vulgar output of the mobs. But then again I don't mind the single round deaths.. go back to Jan and look @ the posts about wipe after wipe.. with Rage and FP breaking in T6. The system in place MAKES the game fun just as the new spells/skills/clicks.

Lets AVOID NERF BATS PERIOD unless the scaling is across the board. I agree no more mitigation bumps upward period.

And "Your big picture just like the other thread that was heated your vision or whatever the fuck you call it. Doesn't MAKE THE GAME FUN FOR EVERYONE JUST YOU"

BTW your fucking condescending when others point out their views plainly then stating they don't see the bigger picture.

You can post or don't I'm not revising this topic again.


Lower Warrior Stonewall  - NO
Raise Paladin/SK Stonewall  - NO To high already Unless you delete all their group / Self Heals or lower them a lot
Raise Pally SW, Turn SK into Lifetap tank - ISN'T This in place already
Working As Intended - /shrug
Other...(explain in post) - NO
   

After the recent changes (spells/skills/clicks) THE GAME IS @ A STATE OF BEING FUN AS HELL TO LOG ON AND PLAY.


 

[Bobbin]

The physical damage is somewhat survivable once a non-tank outgears the current tier. This trend will not continue for long, as eventually the total HP will fall well below the damage dealt in another tier or two.

Bobbin, I don't recall mentioning rampage anywhere.

A non-tank taking damage =/= rampage?

[Ybik]

Ybik, I am not doing this due to my SK having issues. I am somewhat overgeared to be considered a fair break in. I understand that warriors were the "go to" tanks in live...but EZ isn't live.

I wasn't saying your SK was having issues. I said it will appear that way. I also understand this isn't live which is why I said I can't pretend to know Hunters mind. I'll say again nerfing just warriors won't accomplish your goal. If you are wanting to make damage more survivable for knights and non-tanks then you will have to reduce stonewall effects across the board while reducing mob damage and possibly player HP. I think something to the effect of a 60% reduction across the board for stonewall would probably put things where you want them. 24% total for SK, 28% for Paladin, 34% warrior. Like I was saying lets say 1 million HP each. (I know this doesn't take into account AC, runes etc but its an example.)

Pre-Reduction

With 1 million HP Warrior=7.14 million premitigation for one shot
With 1 million HP Paladin=3.33 million premitigation for one shot
With 1 million HP SK=2.5 million premitigation for one shot
With 1 million HP Random Caster= 1 million damage for one shot

Post-Reduction

Warrior=1.51 million premitigation for one shot
Paladin=1.39 million premitigation for one shot
SK=1.31 million premitigation for one shot
Random Caster= 1 million damage for one shot

These numbers would make it much more reasonable and easier to tweak damage to not one shot support characters but still have a decent enough difference to prefer a warrior over a knight. Or you could always give warriors something else and lower their stonewall even more. Maybe have the warrior epic stonewall affect the raid (minus paladins and sk) or something.

[hateborne]

...
/sigh

okay let me explain something Hate,

My warrior yes Fugitive while breaking into T5/T6 died almost every encounter with 3 Fucking healers and all have UCs...

My warrior yes Fugitive in tank mode has 28k DPS !

My warrior yes Fugitive still REQUIRES 1+ Healers to keep him up

My Pallys (x alot) and my 2 SKs which have mostly UCV2s and UC nothing less can sit there and solo End game period!


The problem is the amount of Damage the high end mobs hit for and Used to Riposte for .

Brokyn's Idea back in FEB12 about the 2hd Warrior Epic saved the class period (I drooled the T6 rezzing every encounter if there was a 2 mob Pull DEAD... Off Tanking was a must, Severs(FP) and Rage+Camric+Pimpn Gimped through T6 wiping wiping wiping.

I'm tired of everytime I fucking log on the forums I see a fucking Nerf this nerff that..

Warriors need another PC to keep them alive period.
Knights can sit there and solo (Above Average DPS + WAY to high Current Mitigation)

I still don't understand the reason for this post.

If you want to "Fix Shit" Start with Negotiation with the Boss man about the Vulgar output of the mobs. But then again I don't mind the single round deaths.. go back to Jan and look @ the posts about wipe after wipe.. with Rage and FP breaking in T6. The system in place MAKES the game fun just as the new spells/skills/clicks.

Lets AVOID NERF BATS PERIOD unless the scaling is across the board. I agree no more mitigation bumps upward period.

And "Your big picture just like the other thread that was heated your vision or whatever the fuck you call it. Doesn't MAKE THE GAME FUN FOR EVERYONE JUST YOU"

BTW your fucking condescending when others point out their views plainly then stating they don't see the bigger picture.

You can post or don't I'm not revising this topic again.


Lower Warrior Stonewall  - NO
Raise Paladin/SK Stonewall  - NO To high already Unless you delete all their group / Self Heals or lower them a lot
Raise Pally SW, Turn SK into Lifetap tank - ISN'T This in place already
Working As Intended - /shrug
Other...(explain in post) - NO
   

After the recent changes (spells/skills/clicks) THE GAME IS @ A STATE OF BEING FUN AS HELL TO LOG ON AND PLAY.

Fugitive, that is the reason for the adjustment. If the mitigation wasn't so outrageously high, the mobs wouldn't have to hit for 190325729873598256 damage per swing.

I was not aware responding to others with a countering view was being condescending.

Yes I would like to avoid nerf bats at all. I would like to scale things up, but that requires nearly every class.

Lastly,

And "Your big picture just like the other thread that was heated your vision or whatever the fuck you call it. Doesn't MAKE THE GAME FUN FOR EVERYONE JUST YOU"

Noted. I'll be completely sure to disregard any of your posts to add further insult to you and you alone. (That is being condescending btw.) To be completely clear, I apologized numerous times publicly for that failing and fixed it. I'm sure Hunter too has has some accidental numbers issues. The only difference is, when it comes to him, you don't explode on him because he'll ban you. Again.


Bobbin, apologies. I was meaning that the output of the mobs is so obscene that anything other than a tank is pretty much a one shot. I run 1 melee outside my tank (I have a cleric...but he seldom melees as he dies too often as it is).

-Hate


EDIT: Nearly 50% goes to leave it as it is. That's still majority. Calm yo' ass down Fugitive (more joking condescending).

[hateborne]

I wasn't saying your SK was having issues. I said it will appear that way. I also understand this isn't live which is why I said I can't pretend to know Hunters mind. I'll say again nerfing just warriors won't accomplish your goal. If you are wanting to make damage more survivable for knights and non-tanks then you will have to reduce stonewall effects across the board while reducing mob damage and possibly player HP. I think something to the effect of a 60% reduction across the board for stonewall would probably put things where you want them. 24% total for SK, 28% for Paladin, 34% warrior. Like I was saying lets say 1 million HP each. (I know this doesn't take into account AC, runes etc but its an example.)

I misunderstood then. I am merely trying to get the physical mitigation to more reasonable amounts so mobs won't have to hit for 23572985692 damage. It's becoming difficult to scale and impossible in another 2(ish) tiers.

Thank you for correcting me politely. :-)

-Hate

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