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[Venia]

I think what Hate is missing is a clear view on how a fully endgame geared  sk/pal/war performs

i know sk's that can pull and solo 10+ t6 mobs without breaking a sweat
i know paladins that can do the same
warriors cannot do that simply because of lacking the heals

it makes sense when you are breaking into new content that your tanks will get RNG'ed down very often, i can assure you this is the case for all 3 tanks. first time in t6 (ask paldail he was there) i was dying on my war on every third pull. There is no godmode with playing a war as a maintank. It is slightly easier with the instant aoe aggro and the "oh shit" discs. But their gimp dps and lack of heals kinda makes up for it

I cant really say game is broken at this moment as far as tanks go, in order to require any fixing. I have war/sk/pal in my group composition and have tested tanking with all 3 of them.

It kinda makes sense for non UC chars to get globaled every now and then (specially if its a girly wiz). However i wont say UC's on everything is  a requirement to beat t6. Does UC'ing all your chars help with survivability?...sure it does, i usually clear anguish with 0 deaths nowadays, BUT that's with 12 ucv2/uc/6.0 decked chars.  Will the lack of UC on chars halt your progress?... no it wont. It will make it slower dps wise and you will have to rez/rebuff every now and then, but that's about it. UC's make a great addition to ALL classes pretty much (well, for some even more) but its not a requirement except your maintank and maybe your healers in order to progress.

Would like to point out that most classes have some sort of damage reduction self buff that could get upped with further content (t7+) if its reaaaaally needed, but i dont really see a reason to change a perfectly good balance with mob output vs tank mitigation at this point.

Hate, we have discussed in game before the sk tanking case... i honestly think you are looking at the wrong direction if you thinking to remove stonewall and add more HP. The HP pool would have to be MASSIVE in order to lifetap tank and still in couple RNG cases that you wont dodge/parry or mob miss you will get globaled before you get that tap off.

would like to see though how the discussion goes before i place my vote

/Enosis

[Venia]

by the way Hate....dont you think it makes perfectly sense for a non UC cloth pewpew class to get 1 rounded by an endgame mob if the said class jumps in front of him?.... id say game would be broken if THAT didnt happen.

some of the numbers you guys throw out are way off...you are forgetting that dps classes also have access to SM/IG pets and also their own self mitigation buffs/runes etc

[Felony]

If you cant handle T5 its because you failed to grasp that you have to farm UC on at least the tank and healer. If your goons are dieing its because you either suck at agro management, fail at using /stick on coral or went in there with piss poor gear and thought you would walk over the zone.

If you cant handle T6 through all but the last boss as a solo player you just fail.
I only run 6 in the zone and I do just fine. My knights with only KHH stonewall tank like god damn champions. Oh wait maybe it has something to do with gearing up.

Magelo doesnt work atm so I cant look at your goons but you said you have good gear, I assume you have good gear, so wtf is your problem?

Leave the classes alone that work fine and continue to show love to the classes that are in need of it.

P.s: Its pretty much a standard to show parses if you think shits out of wack. At least thats what we use to do. So if you think that mitigation needs some change go get some parses and show why. 10 hours worth should be a good starting point.
Also, once again you point at the *MAX* mitigation for the classes. I dont come near that max and I do just fine.

I still love you tho.


## edit: post comes across more mean and bitchy then I intended but I'm not going to edit it. I will point out that I run about 35% less mitigation then max on my warrior and have only base spell for mitigation on my paladins. I pew pew shit just fine.
I expect T7 to one round the shit out of me when its released and I finish my flag. If I was able to wtfpwn the first name I came across while afk masturbating to my response to your forum threads I would tell Hunter to make his shit harder.

[Rageful]

I know this thread is about stonewall/tankability, but some discussion on UC's was mentioned and I would like to throw in some cents as a player just scratching T5.

With the current state of the game allowing new players to stomp through content up to MPC in probably under a month causes a bad tasting change of pace once you enter T5. If I had to envision a pace that made sense and also consider the addition of T7 coming, I would orientate the focus of T5 towards the tank.

I hope I am safe to say that most noobs in my position are standing at the entrance of T5 with their core group in mostly T4 gear with a UC war and an oracle(complete) pally. The honest truth is that the group needs to leave and come back after 5 more completed UC's.

I have a suggestion that still requires work to compete with T5 difficulty but relieve the fear of needing to UC 5 toons asap. I think that T5 would be a good time to test your tank, require people to RoA 100+ their warrior/knight and have a shield in the upward ranks. The mobs would hit harder than they do now, but do single target dps. Lower their health a bit to compensate for the lack of UC's.

This would continue a decent pace for newer players, plus give them time to ensure they hit T6 with a core group of UC's.

I don't think this is introducing anything game breaking, or dumbing down the content. I just feel that UC's should be a part of progression rather than a sole purpose for an extended period of time.

If I way off base I apologize, don't murder me.

[Griz]

Well, they already can do over 300k in one round if lucky. The gear just doesn't exist at the T4 level to get a non warrior tank above that level of HP unless you buy charms to max a shield of ages and you grind out a RoA200 first.

I'd rather the aoe damage was shifted towards spells and away from rampage. Other than the various poisons, a lot of the AOE spells do really anemic damage. I'd be fine with T5 trash doing 100-150k AoE nukes as long as there was a bit of time to heal up between.

[Xiggie | Stone]

[hateborne]

Well, they already can do over 300k in one round if lucky. The gear just doesn't exist at the T4 level to get a non warrior tank above that level of HP unless you buy charms to max a shield of ages and you grind out a RoA200 first.

I'd rather the aoe damage was shifted towards spells and away from rampage. Other than the various poisons, a lot of the AOE spells do really anemic damage. I'd be fine with T5 trash doing 100-150k AoE nukes as long as there was a bit of time to heal up between.

Me too. If it was greatly varied, stonewall would be less relevant as 90+ percent of the damage wouldn't be physical damage.


As for Xiggie's post? LoL <3


-Hate

[Xiggie | Stone]

And then what would be the point of having a warrior? Making stonewall irrelevant makes it not only pointless to have a warrior, but makes warriors a bad part of your group. Why would I have a 28k dps tank when I can have a 300k+ dps tank that will tank just as well and will heal itself or the group to boot. As it is right now the reason to have such shitty dps tanking for the group is because it can tank better than anyone else. I understand your pain but you have said yourself You are tanking with an off tank but your wanting it to work like a main tank. On top of that you don't even have a paladin in your group. If I went into T6 with my warrior and only 1 cleric and 1 paladin I would die a lot too, (assuming you do have a cleric in your group and using the paladin to make up for your sk tap heals).

You've said that it is hard to balance and not consider the halloween pets. I think this conversation was had on the forums not long ago. If content is balanced against items that can only be gained 1 week out of the year then the majority of the server is screwed. The majority of the server does not have the IG pet. Focusing on that is focusing on the few and not the server as a whole.

I can't see the logic behind suggesting that knight classes be weened away from tanking or lose any of the hate generation spells. I don't know if that is just a temper tantrum or what, but I can't see any rhyme or reason for that.

The picture was put up in jest though. Found it on ebaums and thought of this thread, lol.

[wolfegunr]

I too think the game is fun as hell as it is and leave it alone as most others do. The issue then becomes future content and the numbers game (we are running out of room for further mitigation.) I have several Ideas on this that does not involve the nerf bat (again, almost never a good idea and certainly not wanted here):

1) We leave the mobs dps output the same but add caster dps to T7. This would make us rely more on hps/resists from now on instead of mitigation.

2) We  divide all dps and mitigation by a factor of 2 to simplify the number crunching and leave lots of room for further expansion (from T3 up for example).

Using smaller numbers would make all calculations easy to compute as well and maybe even help a bit with lag. This is most likely something we will HAVE to do eventually anyways. The numbers are just too freakin big.

We also probably would be better off if we could combine all 3 augs that we use now on weapons in a magic box (only requirement being that all would have to be on the same level) to produce a single augment that would be the combined dps of the three augs, and the new 7.0 could just use 1 aug slot to both reduce lag and make player dps more reliable. These recipies would take into account  that monks use 2x ice strikes and 1x ninja strike whereas ranger uses 2x NS, and pali uses 3x FS.

While we are at it we could halve player dps and hps on mobs. Basically clean up the system, allow for expansion and streamline the number crunching. This would take a bit of doing as it's not really quite as simple as simply halving everything, but this would be something I would love to help with.

[Hunter]

Some good points.

Stonewall will probably stay where it is for now.

T7 has some new ideas not mentioned yet.

I'm not used to balancing mobs DPS based on spells, so would take some trial n error, maybe do that in T8.

We worked a bit on Divine Intervention but I need to check that out more, maybe make a ranked jewelry slot with higher and higher chance for being saved from death.

Been planning to reduce the augs for a while. I like the idea of combining 3 augs of the same type to get 1 aug of 3x power. This way we could have less procs without nerfing players that invested getting their aug strikes. As a last minute thing I just might add that for T7, and slowly start working backwards in the tiers to fix that as well. If I change a current epic with 3 aug slots down to 2 aug slots, then some players will have missing augs. Might only be safe to do that in T7+. Also going to use higher (white) damage values too.

Resist are going to start being a factor with Heroic stats increasing the cap over 1000 which is what would be needed to resist most NPC 'unresistable' spells.

For future and previous content I plan to make NPC's spells either single target and/or lower radius for AoE's. Also durations for stuff will probably reduce such as root, fear, charm, etc.

Seems PoFire had their mobs successfully 'leashed' without too much butt hurt. Next place to try that might be LDoN but with higher drop rates.

EZ Server is evolving for the better, esp with good feedback.

Thanks,

Hunter

[Chunka]

Warriors are still tanks of choice live for heaviest hitters due to their superior mitigation, evasion, parry and dodge (no, dodge and evasion arent the same thing in EQ). I dont know if the base stats are the same here or not, but I know for a fact a warrior here without any discipline running will take less damage that an SK or pally. I also know that live a monk will take less damage w/o disc than an SK or pally, but that this isnt the case in EZ (perhaps the coding for monks here more resembles live pre monk "un-nerf").

Yeah, stonewall makes this gap between knight and warrior tanking larger. Honestly I dont see a problem with that. Yeah, any non "tank" class seems to eat it like a Klondike Bar when T5 mobs rampage. I dont think the answer is to make their tanking better. In fact I dont think Hunter needs to change much at all. I dont lose characters when fighting out of the water. No set of moveutils seems to be able to change this....any any I've tried just seem to make the issue worse, not better. I chalk it up to "underwater combat in EQ is f'd here, f'd live, has always been f'd and probably always will BE f'd". Dry side of T5 I dont lose players to rampage very often....and when I do its typically something I've done wrong. And yes, they are all 4.0 epic'd, not 4.5 or 5. And all in T4 armor (with a growing pile of T5). And so far nowhere near enough of them are UC'd.

Normally I am not a big proponent of offense in EQ....I tend to see the game as more of a smart defense being your best bet. But in T5....its all about the DPS. You wont be able to get a damned thing done without fast kills....and more chances of something fubaring the longer you dance with mobs that can smack ya for 90K and change. After spending my time in T5 I honestly believe that without proper positioning and right group makeup and the majority (if not all) of your characters at the VERY least with a lvl 50 in their primary charm, if not UC.....you're just jerking off. You need a solid dps crew to do T5.

[hateborne]

As heretical as this sounds, can anyone give me a 10min parse for warrior with UC+, normal tank layout (Sword & board), Icestrike 5s (or better)?

Next, can anyone give me a 5 or 10 minute parse of being hit? I know this sounds odd, but can anyone go out and find a bunch of mobs to get hit? I am trying to get a handle on the average riposte rate.

I will need the parses too. Sorry to be so needy. If anyone have a warrior of similar gear level, would anyone mind allowing me access around 1am EST for about 30 minutes?

Lastly, the majority is still winning. The bossman even contributed saying he will likely keep things as they are. Poll has 5 more days, but it's looking like things will stay.

-Hate

[Chunka]

And sorry, I only saw this page of the thread (long night at work). Sorry to rehash the same ground

Hate, regarding your post on pally agro. This wasnt an issue for me at all before nerd 4's were changed. At all. Its not much of an issue for me now, either, though.....if the warrior loses agro I hit the scepter a time or 2 and he's back on top. But then I changed my epic 1h I use with my uniweapon to hold 2 nerd 4's and a 5. I dont have an issue losing agro to a warrior. Or are you wanting pally agro to be less than SK agro?

[hateborne]

And sorry, I only saw this page of the thread (long night at work). Sorry to rehash the same ground

Hate, regarding your post on pally agro. This wasnt an issue for me at all before nerd 4's were changed. At all. Its not much of an issue for me now, either, though.....if the warrior loses agro I hit the scepter a time or 2 and he's back on top. But then I changed my epic 1h I use with my uniweapon to hold 2 nerd 4's and a 5. I dont have an issue losing agro to a warrior. Or are you wanting pally agro to be less than SK agro?

I don't know how many more times I can state this... I am not trying to one up any single class. If you look at what I've done before and what I'm doing now, I am NOT trying to do so. Once one class becomes the top, everyone rushes to them (remember paladins?), then understandable adjustments were made by everyone, then everyone does the mass exodus.

For that matter, I don't run a paladin in my active group (and seldom at all, as I rarely even use group two). Healing is irrelevant to me as I'm either full HP, 80%, or dead. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground...ever.

The Nerds IV were changed 6 months ago (along with a VARIETY of other abilities) to account for the threat rollover. This occurred when a fight lasted too long. I'm glad that this didn't happen to most because their DPS was high enough to never hit it (I hit it once in a blue moon, but never enough to care). The sad reality is that it was hitting quite often on those not running a well played and/or well geared 5+ man team. It was also not rare enough to completely disregard. The threat reduction on the paladin proc is completely negated by Sorcerer 50 or Oracle 50. The only difference this would even make is that paladins are highly unlikely able to passively overthrow the MT except in EXTREME duration (7+ min) fights.


-Hate

[Felony]

You want a 10m parse of warrior dps and as good of a parse as can be obtained against a t6 named then?
I can afk my warrior which is about what you asked for, on the dummy for 10m x3 to generate 3 base parses and I can go throw War+Pal against some T6 trash and the first couple named to get some parses there as well.
Figure if its just war/pal the fights should last long enough to generate something worth catching with gamparse.

5.0 IS7/IS7/Nerd4 mainhand, SOTA XL offhand OR IS6/IS6/Nerd4 5.0 offhand.
No SM or IG pet, Dont use cleric click or buff (im lazy and shit doesnt last long enough for me to want to use it).

Let me know if that is what you want.
Can you get some parses of your SK for us when you get a chance Hate?
Just because I like to give you shit, doesnt mean I wont help with parses 

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