Ultimate Weapon Discussion

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[hateborne]

A ton of ideas have already been posted - however, I'd like additional stats if possible Hate.

Can you tell us how many people with 6+ chars from the same IP address that DO and DO NOT have an UW (both sides of the debate per-say)?  IE - 120 people who play 6+ chars have at least one UW, while 145 people who play 6+ chars do not own an UW currently.  

What I'd like to see is how many serious progression driven people do not have already own an UW.  There will always be exceptions to every rule, but I believe this would be a great start to narrowing down an acceptable solution.

This info available Hate?

No Takishi. I can pull the number of UWs out there. The number of people that us 6 or 6+ is impossible to report because there is no way to log this action. I can pull every account by IP, but that doesn't give me anything. If you pulled characters, levels, and HP by IP from me, you would see most of mine around the same...even though I only play 6 (but have 14). The only way to truly find out is to one by one each IP address and associated accounts, manually parse through items, and my judgement calls on "is this an active or shelved character?".

tl;dr - Not possible.

I've read through this a few times. Clearly nothing will make everyone happy but it seems the HP drop, leave white dmg alone are mostly agreed upon.

I would like to see a number of people per IP with UW's and ranks.

See reply above.

Locking out isn't an option in my opinion. These are progression zones and it's "Game on" type of scenario.

Hate - Could you possibly revamp some of the zones on the test server, either t8 or t9 then ask a few higher end players to come and raid one of those zones with a proposed UW they have on the active server? Get feedback that way? Test then implement !

Keeze,

I don't have the time, energy, and/or patience to completely rebuild/revamp/adjust zones to test theories. Being a bit of a one man band for development, I'm extremely limited on time (less so than Hunter though). I'm doing most of my dev work at my day job (as we're STUPID slow for another month). I'm fighting to get T9 corrected for the general population, let alone rebuilding for theory testing.

One change that was made to nerf damage in a way was to fix/implement the regen of mobs.  If my crew of 12 can clear T8 in 1 hour with UW9, whatever changes are made shouldn't affect that. 

If we go with the "old school" eq standards - we disable UW quest and keep it in game.  Pre-nerf circle of shadows for example, cast time vs insta-cast.  Just saying.

The regen was added to combat ARMIES of zerks afk & autoattacking. It does not represent a true solution though. Regen does less for nerfing damage and more for creating DPS checks.


Rent,

Great post and thank you for it. I'm not going to quote and edit it down, but it's been noted. I appreciate it!



Ladies/Gents,

Dimur brought up a valid point. Maybe white damage across the board is a bit low. If I were to double the white damage on all the tier dropped weapons and then scale UWs 5x off the new value (which is effectively 2x the example previously), would this better suit the weapon?


-Hate

[Fjord]

Ladies/Gents,

Dimur brought up a valid point. Maybe white damage across the board is a bit low. If I were to double the white damage on all the tier dropped weapons and then scale UWs 5x off the new value (which is effectively 2x the example previously), would this better suit the weapon?


-Hate

Seems to be begging the question, but I don't take issue what is being proposed by it.

[Takishi]

Ladies/Gents,

Dimur brought up a valid point. Maybe white damage across the board is a bit low. If I were to double the white damage on all the tier dropped weapons and then scale UWs 5x off the new value (which is effectively 2x the example previously), would this better suit the weapon?

-Hate

I'm assuming this would also include tweaks to T8+ mob health, regen, etc?  As it stands right now, rollover sucks in T8 and will get worse once the UW damage is gimped revamped.

[Kruciel]

Might be too much to try and track the amount of UWs per IP, but maybe just taking a look at how many 100 essence quests have been completed could give a rough estimate.

P.S. Hi everyone 

[Hulkpunch]

Dimur brought up a valid point. Maybe white damage across the board is a bit low. If I were to double the white damage on all the tier dropped weapons and then scale UWs 5x off the new value (which is effectively 2x the example previously), would this better suit the weapon?

yep

[Chunka]

Caught back up on this, and thought I'd comment.

Rent I think put it perfectly. I think any solution needs to really keep his post in mind.

Three things I see as an issue with the UW: hps, ability to steamroll early content and how the quest impacts other, necessary quests already in place (and sorry, but if you try to tell me that strike augs, mana necks and SoA arent necessary in the game as its set I'll just point and laugh at you).

HPS: simple fix. Ratchet the hps down a bit. As to how much, I dont think I disagree with the numbers Hate's talked about thus far...as long as higher tier mob hps take a beating, too.

Content steamroll: just to be clear....not talking about someone level 75 going back into HoH or T5 and soloing like a beast. I think thats part of what you pay for when you progress, UW aside. The UW should make it easier. I think the whole lockout idea is a BAD one. But.....I dont think a level 71 should be able to grind his butt off for a couple weeks an completely trivialize content to T5....and thats what happens often enough. Again, I think the UW needs to have a minimum level of 73 or 74....that the bottom levels need to be knocked off, that farming for items needs to start around T5, whatever....but it needs to be a Big Boy Toy (and yes, already through the bottom tiers of the UW myself).

Impact on other farming: covered this before, but I think it needs to be restated. I do not think the UW quest should share core essences with strike augs, mana neck or SoA. I think the core bottleneck item needs to be something thats JUST used for the UW. Make it multizone, sure.....make it grindy, no problem! But using the same essences that are a MUST for progression in the game as the throttle for the quest is, IMO, a mistake. People trying to create their first augs/SoA/whatever shouldnt be competing against players 4 levels higher with 100 times the cash and resources and fighting a drop rate meant to control the rarity of the most powerful item in the game. SLS does that enough as it is Get newbies off the same treadmill...its just plain not fair to them. I think if you look at the above suggestion on making less UW (starting at a higher tier) this would help a ton on its own, even if the first essence you needed was, for example, Abyss.....but I think the best solution is to use a different item for the quest than zone essences.

Anyway, great thread, great ideas. Thanks for listening, Hate.

[Brokyn]

I think Dimur said it before, but...  Why does it matter if you are farming 100 Essence of Whateverzone and then another 30 Essence of Whateverzone or if the first 100 are replaced with NotAnEssence of Whateverzone?  You still have to farm 130 of something...  Might as well be able to keep them in 1 stack till you get over 100.

The reduction in Essence drops was a way to slow down the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction on the server.  It didn't work, and it did make it harder to farm Essences for strike augs.  Hate has already assured us that when he works on UW balance he will also re-adjust Essence drops to make them work for everyone.

Let's not create more problems, let's find a solution to the big one.

[marxist]

Ladies/Gents,

Dimur brought up a valid point. Maybe white damage across the board is a bit low. If I were to double the white damage on all the tier dropped weapons and then scale UWs 5x off the new value (which is effectively 2x the example previously), would this better suit the weapon?


-Hate

If all you are doing is x2-x3 dmg on current weapons that drop and then making uw x5 those, I'd like a full refund on the weapon.  I might have missed another change being proposed, but I see this as a proposal by itself.

[Gannicus]

I really liked Rents post as he hit the core of the majority of peoples issue with the changes to UW. Mainly where I reason with my no white damage change is because I like many others saw the item and worked incredibly hard to attain it ; and like I've said in other posts, I didn't see the HP per say and go after it for that reason, the damage was the carrot that dangled and made it so desirable. With all the materials I've invested into the UW I could've augd an entire group that as the current stance seems will completely demolish the dps return from the UW alone.

Another good point of his ; "UW is an ultimate farming weapon above all else. its very nice to be able to back farm items without having to log in all of your crew to do so. Take T5 for example. its nice to solo T5 vs logging in 6 toons to do the zone. I believe this, above all is what the butt pain is about. I farmed the UW to make it easier to back farm for augs, plat, etc. Take that away and why do I have the darn thing? Why do I need it anymore?"

I hated t5, with a passion - worked hard, flagged up and above working on the UW as much as I possibly could and now thanks to the UW I was able to go back to t5 and instead of having to worry about carrying a group behind me in water and everything else or pulling to X location to kill everything with my group I can just run through the zone and solo it efficently on my warrior without a ton of hassle that used to be there. Why? Because I invested a lot of time into achieving an item that was able to do such. I liked the ability to go back and trivialize content and be able to do it without having to carry toons on my back just for the dps to support it.

tl;dr I think touching the white damage is a huge mistake and if you look at the general pool of people, that's where we agree on , the white damage needs to be left alone and more so look at the hps factor of the weapon that is in itself game breaking when it comes to content development.

[Chunka]

I think Dimur said it before, but...  Why does it matter if you are farming 100 Essence of Whateverzone and then another 30 Essence of Whateverzone or if the first 100 are replaced with NotAnEssence of Whateverzone?  You still have to farm 130 of something...  Might as well be able to keep them in 1 stack till you get over 100.

The reduction in Essence drops was a way to slow down the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction on the server.  It didn't work, and it did make it harder to farm Essences for strike augs.  Hate has already assured us that when he works on UW balance he will also re-adjust Essence drops to make them work for everyone.

Let's not create more problems, let's find a solution to the big one.

Ok, lets try this scenario: Nooblet the Ninja starts on this server, loves it, decides to stick around and play. Sees quickly that he needs to box, so he creates his team. Then he discovers that to be worth a sheet his tank needs SoA. So thats 4 essence from every tier. His 2 megamelee need 2 NS augs each....which is 4 per tier per character, starting at CT essences.....and 2 more FS class chars. Toss in some icestrikes, and suddenly he needs 20+ essences from each tier. So....he's gathered some cash, harvested some essences, but he wants to use his cash surplus to buy more, or trade extra SLS for essences.

But.....because the UW uses the same essences the demand for them is skyhigh, and the buyers are mostly higher tier players who make 5 mil a day without breaking a sweat. This pushes essence prices up, to the point that making a NS5 costs 5 mil JUST IN ESSENCES if he buys them at going player trade rate.

Then, 2 months down the road, management decides UW are too easy, so they lower drop rate.....which completely cockblocks newer players.

And this is what we're seeing now. Our server economy was a mess to start with, and UW has made it worse. Most goods are overinflated anymore, and UW is one of the biggest reasons why. If you move the UW off the tier essence standard this may change a bit.

[marxist]

Why don't you just type lets take uws off essences?  Nobody disagrees that essence drop rates suck (in a lot of zones, not all), and having them balanced towards uw farming is dumb.

[Chunka]

I did. Just replying to people arguing against it.

[spuddson]

Love it or not UW is part of EZ. in the last year essence drops have gone up loads namely dropping 1:200 trash and 1:10 named. it has become very easy to start and work on UW from the get go.

from what ive seen it has been that the higher tiers when opened up have been for the top players to break and get the benefits and then after a few months that tier is made easyer for the lower players can catch up.

Yes UW is very very powerful but i would hate it to be reduced in power as its a status symbol and reward for a lot of work.

With Hates latest work on the epic skins i see this as more of a solution ie make epics slightly more powerful . how about more epics even... 8.1 by having a combine of two epics to up the hp/ac regen etc.

have the damage of epic be similar to say 3 less the equivalent uw. so the t8 epic be similar to the uw5. means those who wants the uw will still get an advantage but also those who dont can keep up somewhat.

on side note ild love to see UW ac augs ))

[Raygan]

T8-9 have not been reduced so that epic-level players can break into the zone. t8-9 have been nerfed because the content wasn't properly introduced/constructed in the first place.  These zones were made with UW in mind on creation.  That is not how this server was designed until after the UW was introduced....of course UC wasn't suppose to be "required" when it hit the shelf either but we all see how that has gone. 

You have to see it from Hate's stand point too. He is a one man band...and this aint his day job....unfortunately it just feel into his lap.  I think we should all be willing to bend a little because I'll be honest...I wouldn't want his job....dealing with a bunch off mother f'ers QQ everyday and not even getting paid for it!  F' that! 

[Takishi]

Honestly - I haven't put an opinion out there yet, as many options are on the table already from a give/take standpoint.  But just so my name is on the list as well:

Hitpoints - deflate them to 3 times epic of the tier, puts people on a fairly even playing field when it comes to future development of bosses, zones and expecations of tanks.

Damage - this is the main reason most people got the weapon, hitpoints were a close second.  If we scale epics up, and UW down, the edge still resides with the UW.  However, at that point, materials would be better spent fully augmenting and upgrading characters with the same essences/mats/etc.  

Stats - Seems fine other than HPS, although resists are high compared to epics.

Proc - Doesn't need changed imo, as NS9's or 10's hit harder.

I do agree that the UW has caused a large chain reaction on the server, and one that may cause long term issues.  Point being - if we keep the UW as-is, we will eventually run into a "Max" on damage before rollover.  That is my only true concern with inflating damage values and keeping the UW as it stands.  If that concern isn't reality and we're able to push the limits higher with the patches being implemented, then I don't see a problem anymore.

However - I still feel we're talking about 20% of the population that do not own at least one UW already on a toon.  UC, UCV2, SOA, and ROA aren't required items to progress on the server.  

UC - everyone would agree that the UC is indeed required if you ever want to complete T5/T6 (assuming you haven't yet).  
UCV2 - Required if you plan on beating T7/T8.  
SOA - when entering T6 for the first time, you quickly learn that anything that reduces the damage your tank takes is worth getting, and likely required to an extent.  
ROA - now a byproduct of killing and gaining AA's - not required.
UW - With the revamp of essence drops, increase in plat bag / mob dropped plat, unleashing most zones, allowing 100 mobs at a time - Is there a reason the UW isn't part of the progression to an extent? Sure, it sucks for casuals. I play when I can, and finally getting my UW was awesome.  Took me months of farming, 2 double loots and trading to get it.  But anyone who has a UW has been through the same exact path. Hardcore players and casuals alike, can get the exact same item.  It just depends on how much dedication and RNG skills you have.


With all of that being said - Hate, I truly appreciate the time, energy, and effort you, Love, and Akka put into the server.  Thank you for keeping this ball rolling sir.  Hopefully we can all semi-agree on a solution.

  
Edit - added color for sh!ts and giggles.

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