HOT BUTTON: Buff Level Restrictions and ROA/SOA/UW/Aug Level Requirements

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[Kelordis]

Hate if you make the mask changes you are proposing (different bonus per lvl etc.), please make the mask a raid buff as well. Nice trade off and will result in less folks MGBing exp in nexus. Also allows us to put mask on other toons besides melee which don't use MGB for other stuff.

Or just do the different % per level and keep MGB. It's win/win for everyone.

Don't you want to keep the spirit of sharing MGB buffs, EXP buff included? Just need to add level restrict on them to prevent from landing on lowbie or having level 70 getting 1000% exp buff right off the bat. 71+ get the stat buffs and lv70 get 100% buff, you will be able to get better EXP buff as you level up. At around 75? You get full benefit up to 1000% exp.

[Zephr]

I feel like the idea behind some things that were added to the server in the past is not being preserved anymore, which is a shame.

Ring of Ages was there to give people an edge on content. You farmed it up to make your current farming a little easier. Or, you couldn't clear something, so you farmed it up instead of farming something else to help. It was a pretty optional thing to do. There is a reason it didn't have a level requirement on it. If someone was wanting to spend the time to farm it out earlier than they needed to, then all to them.

Shield of Ages. I don't know much about how this item came around or anything. Personally, I thought there was already a level requirement, but maybe I had only been paying attention to upgrading it to my current tier. *shrug*

Earring of Ages. I also don't know what the idea was or where this one came from, but the level requirement almost seems kind of strange to add. I mean, you have to farm 100,000 AAs and 10 GSoA before it even give you any bonus at all. Other than the very few individuals who I have seen grind content they're in like mad, I haven't seen anyone with one of these before like T8. So all I see with a requirement being added to this is adding an unnecessary restriction to players. Basically punishing the 1 guy who is willing to grind more than other players, which I wouldn't say is fair.

Ultimate Weapons shouldn't have a level requirement like mentioned. They were supposed to be these super hard-to-get weapons that not everyone would have. Contrary to people thinking T7+ is what people should need first, or the proposed level requirement on the weapon of each tier, it's kind of a strange thing to suggest. Although the level requirement wouldn't really have any kind of impact on anyone (maybe 1 in every 1000 people actually farm enough and trade to get an UW2 before they can use it) they would still be at a loss due to losing that proc. Maybe rank 7-8 and up would be a different story because of the raw damage increase, but regardless, they'd still be losing that proc which is still very worth having. In my opinion, if someone really wanted to upgrade their UW early, then all to them. However, like I said, this change is basically irrelevant and won't really effect anyone anyway.

Augments. You really didn't address this at all. I'd say they're fine just as they are. Powerful, but not more powerful than an Ultimate Weapon upgraded to the same tier, which is how it should be. Otherwise, and Ultimate Weapon would cease to be "ultimate."

Buffs. I'd say this is the only real thing worth debating in this topic. While having these buffs could be really nice at low levels, it makes total sense to add a level restriction to them. I understand the players could quit because they think the server is "too hard" when really it's just that they were carried through their earlier content. I could imagine the argument being used, though, that a player can just as easily pull all of Plane of Time for a new player. Though that's true, I think it's more acceptable considering the player is going out of their way to help another player, rather than saying "here's a buff that makes win the game for 3 tiers." I'm personally on board with adding a level requirement to buffs. Maybe allowing 1 tier of leniency? A level 76 can get 77 buffs for example. Usually 1 tier buff differences aren't big. All together though, pre-70 getting any post-70 buffs is incredibly over-powered for lowbies. I think about how when I first leveled on the server 6 years almost, it took like 3 days to hit 70, playing like 6 hours a day.

My biggest concern is the level requirement on RoA. I really think adding a level requirement to it takes away from the original idea that it was something a player could farm on the side of regular grinding. If anything, make it a little bit harder to grind out.

[Rent Due]

Ultimate Weapons shouldn't have a level requirement like mentioned. They were supposed to be these super hard-to-get weapons that not everyone would have. Contrary to people thinking T7+ is what people should need first, or the proposed level requirement on the weapon of each tier, it's kind of a strange thing to suggest. Although the level requirement wouldn't really have any kind of impact on anyone (maybe 1 in every 1000 people actually farm enough and trade to get an UW2 before they can use it) they would still be at a loss due to losing that proc. Maybe rank 7-8 and up would be a different story because of the raw damage increase, but regardless, they'd still be losing that proc which is still very worth having. In my opinion, if someone really wanted to upgrade their UW early, then all to them. However, like I said, this change is basically irrelevant and won't really effect anyone anyway.

It has been said before, but I will say it again here. We all keep referring to this T7 date for a reason. The reason is, is this is the tier when it was introduced to us to begin with. Before T7 was released it didn't exist. The real reason why it never had a level requirement, and this is part speculation, is because the UW was a money maker for the server back in the day. Back when you could literally walk onto the server and buy an UW. From level 1 of the weapon to the end, you could buy the essences and plat to make it. Back then the EON component and I believe if I remember correctly the TOFS component wasn't a requirement. When it was released there was a leak in information and quite a few people farmed up/bought/traded up for a stock of 100's of essences. The day the weapon was released it was made to its last form. Personally I made a level 1 UW shortly after it's release then sat on it for a while not thinking it would be "needed" to go to end game. Once I got around to seeing it was needed the recipe change was implemented, then I was super pissed and still didn't make it out of spite.

Looking back, this item was the single most game breaking item ever conceived. The ultimate weapon back then had far more luster to it then what is presented now. Millions of hps, boom everything is dead click, etc. To address the other part of your answer, yes there are people that make UWXI's before ever reaching T5 even. Why? Because they can.

The UW should really be called the Ultimate Farming Tool or just call it a rake. It makes lower level content silly. I remember when I got mine up in levels going back to HOH, pulling a ton of mobs and then clicking it and everything dying. I was like wow, this is easy. Imagine if I wasn't T8 and doing that.....hmmmm.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a limitation of power on this item, as well as the others. These items, every one of them gives a player such an edge on content there is no way to balance content. It took a long, long time to balance the UW against content. To the point where the choice was, 1. make content to be challenging to players with UW(s), making it "have to have" or 2. making content to players without UW(s) thus letting the players with UW(s) steam roll it.

And, contrary to anyone's belief, I am actually not for nerfing items that were placed in the game, used, then decided on to be removed or changed due to the item's effectiveness not being fully thought through before release. However in these situations we are dealing with years of this server's creation and change. It is hard to really get a grasp on the whole picture without being one of the "old salt" players.

Thus, everyone knew these items should have been made with level restrictions, but hey, they are cool so let it ride. However now, and has been for a while, people seem to not be playing content so much as obtaining these items and then playing content. If I had a dime for every time I heard a newer player say "Well, I will be ok when I get my UW up to level X, Y, Z I will be able to do this content I would be a rich man.

Ultimately it will be up to Hateborne, with the thoughts of the server majority to make these tough decisions. We can either look at it from a logically sound point of view for the health of the server or we can look at it from a "I want this item and you shouldn't deny me it because you have/had it" ideology. 

[hateborne]

Ultimately it will be up to Hateborne, with the thoughts of the server majority to make these tough decisions. We can either look at it from a logically sound point of view for the health of the server or we can look at it from a "I want this item and you shouldn't deny me it because you have/had it" ideology. 

This. I am asking for feedback on how best to handle a delicate situation. It seems like EXP buffs limited by 100% per level (70 0-100%, 71 101-200%, etc etc) seemed the least hated suggestion. :-)


-Hate

[Leis]

The best way Hate, is to use the level limits. Optionally if you're bored, you can make them recommended levels and set the items to scale down for lower levels who got them before they reached that level. That way people who got these items above their tier can use them as if they were the lower ranked item until they level up.

[Kelordis]

The best way Hate, is to use the level limits. Optionally if you're bored, you can make them recommended levels and set the items to scale down for lower levels who got them before they reached that level. That way people who got these items above their tier can use them as if they were the lower ranked item until they level up.

My exactly thought, but wasn't sure if it's possible on EverQuest's engine.

[kronarq]

I would just like to point out that as the veterans that have been raging on these issues and demanding everything that doesn't apply to them be made harder and take longer, they are actively steering people away from the server. Since this shitstorm hit I have had far less desire to play. All the rage and QQ has been exhausting. They act as if the 100's of hours I and other newer players have put in are meaningless, how dare we be progressing. How dare it not take as long as when they progressed and were waiting on each new tier to be developed. How dare there be any differences from the experience they had 6 years ago. I know this isn't everyone's intention, but it is the end result. This is an unrealistic expectation of any MMO which is by definition a dynamic and changing environment. Furthermore, I believe a speed differential over time is a necessity for any aging online community. Just because someone hasn't been along for the journey since the beginning, doesn't mean they can't be made a valuable part of it moving forward. Look at virtually any MMO that hasn't shutdown and has been around for an extended period of time. The experience of the veterans will almost undoubtedly have been longer and more difficult then new players. Why? Because new blood is vital to any community without it the community will wither and die.

While balance may need to be tuned, kneejerk reactions at the point of the pitchforks of an angry mob is not an ideal solution. Changes should be weighed carefully and tested. Some veterans should try creating a new group with zero assistance from their other toons or anyone else and progress. Still think leveling up a fresh group is so quick and easy? Document your experience. Maybe there are somethings that are no duh to you that are unknown to others and that is why there is this divide in perception between those currently working in the lower tiers and those wanting it nerfed. Just remember there is still tons and tons and tons of grind on the server.  No need to try and burn people out on the low tiers.


This is just my two cents on the matter. I just wanted to express my point of view from the other side of the wall.

That side being a newer player of a 6 man group.
/played time 53 days (1,272 hours) I get pulled away a lot so let's say somewhere between 50%-75% actually playing that's 636-954 hours.
Working on T5, Group has their 4.5 epics, Strike Augs, Finishing UC's, RoAs 299-374, SoA 10, and Just got first UW1 on War.

In summary the pitchfork wielding mob needs to chill and Hate needs to make the changes he feels are best in his own time and not be rushed.

[Chunka]

I'd just like to point out that most of the veterans commenting on this never really benefited from the buffs in question when they were coming up. If we had exp buffs they were far later in our careers, and they were the result of cash donated to the server, not a clicky you can get pretty much just by logging in and killing a bit (and in the grand scheme of things not a lot of kills, either). We didnt have massive hp buffs (25K max, iirc). We didnt have huge damage shields. There WERE no massive damage buffs....hell, there were no strike augs anyway. We survived.

Am I saying these are all bad things? HELL, no. I love what Hate's done with the place. However....balance is important, and this is what we're discussing. Bottom line is, as much as you may claim we're "driving away new players", I gotta call bullshit. GREAT example is Waraesh. Kick ass player, aint really been around long. Where is he now? Now that he's T10 and one of the top rated players on the server?

He aint here. He left. He's bored. He's pissed that things have become so cheapened that even in his VERY limited time here it upsets him. I'll let him explain why, if he chooses to do so, or will let you ask him (if you can find him).

Where's Fugi? Where's Kruciel? Anyone REALLY seen Rymo play much lately? Hell, how much less do I log in? And beyond that....how many other players have spent a few short months here, hit T9 or T10 and maxed gear, and have vanished? This is something every game runs into....and the way most combat it is to just churn on new content at an alarming rate. Well, Hate's ONE guy. He has obligations. He cant make this a full time career.

I was calling for T10 to be a NIGHTMARE....and it is to an extent. I also find it disappointing and boring, but thats not Hate's fault. We have some pretty big limitations on the EMU, and we're hitting them to an extent.

My point is that there has to be a balance between "LOG IN AND DIE NOOB!!!!" and the bullshit we all saw so much of in Warcrap, "Greetings Hunter! Please correctly state your name for max level and the best possible gear!" Thats the point of this discussion.....and the hard truth is that if you make this shit too easy (and right now, I dont care what you say, it IS) then the server will be populated by assclowns who are just here for bragging rights (you know....jerkwads who spend all their time in Nexus auctioning SLS for 500K each, wearing T9 gear and UWXI, even though they have killed maybe 12 mobs since they hit 70).

If you cant see that shits broke, you're livin in a van down by the river....you know, that one in Egypt.

[warrior5]

Lol shits getting out of control. Everyone relax.

[Leis]

Chunka is 100% correct. The veterans don't drive players away. Hell, they go out of their way to help new players and half of the time new players give them shit for it. I have seen those same vets spend months helping players with the right attitude. Some of these people you think are vets are newer players who took the advice people gave them, used the guides and wiki's the vets made, and advanced at a decent pace.

Sure some of the vets might troll you, but they would never give you a bad deal on a trade. They are good people who just get tired of the constant flow of newbs complaining about simple things, who haven't even taken the time to understand the basics of this server, and will never make it past T5.

[Waraesh]

I'll weigh in on this one as well.  Thanks for all the kind words Chunka (blush).  I think Chunka hit the nail right on the head.  I came into EZ with a friend of mine and burned through content from bottom to top in a little over a year.  Please understand, I did this in about an hour a day during weeknights and 2 nights a week of 4 hour sessions.  I was able to take advantage of the generosity of the vets here with buffs and knowledge of the game.  I brought my own buff crew along since day 1, but I recognized early the value that the buffs offered.  The buffs trivialized content up to about t5.  I can literally count on 1 finger the number of times that I died to something where I wasn't intentionally limit testing.  (Goddamn charm mob in LDoN on the way from Frog to Tree).  I don't mean to pee in anyone's sandbox, I adored my time on EZ, so much so that I still keep this forum my homepage even though I haven't logged in for a couple months.
I guess at the end of the day, the question becomes what is the EZ experience supposed to be?  For me it was easy, there wasn't any part of the content where I had to wrack my brain and figure out how to write a key that was going to keep agro on a 2nd toon and heal him and dispel the off tanked mob, etc.  And that was great, but it didn't provide hurdles high enough to keep me interested and the buffs exasperated the issue.
TLDR:  Buffs make 50% of the game too EZ

[balidet]

TL:DR:

Shit gets too easy it boring ....shit gets too hard it frustrating.


Everyone has a different level of boring/frustration so we can't agree...

Level restrict everything from the mask to the UW...

Remove the GSOA from the loot table and the requirement for earring.

Add an AA component for the UW (IE. ..20k a level...30k whatever) and double the AA cost of the earring.


Mask of experience should not be mass group buffable.


The server is fixed.

unicorn poop is the new newbie plat source...

You are welcome.

[warrior5]

I think we can all agree Waraesh is the exception not the rule. Probably not the best case study of an average player's experience on EZ.

[Chunka]

No.....the rule is the retard who got too confused by P99, who's bored to tears with games like Warcrap who came here because the wife/and-or Mommy wouldnt give them the credit card to buy a sub to a mainstream game, and who saw the name "EZ" and got immediate wood.....who then started smashing his safety helmet into the keyboard screaming "BAD!! BAD MAN! RENT BAD MAN!"

Ok, sorry, I got that out of my system. Rent, some days you're my hero.

There IS no "rule". Get 10 new players and you'll see 10 completely different reasons for playing and play styles. But one thing I WILL tell you: of the players who would make it here long term you'll see far more drieven away by shit being too easy than ones being "driven off" because they cant buy their way to T9.

[Mersedez]

I would just like to point out that as the veterans that have been raging on these issues and demanding everything that doesn't apply to them be made harder and take longer, they are actively steering people away from the server. Since this shitstorm hit I have had far less desire to play. All the rage and QQ has been exhausting. They act as if the 100's of hours I and other newer players have put in are meaningless, how dare we be progressing. How dare it not take as long as when they progressed and were waiting on each new tier to be developed. How dare there be any differences from the experience they had 6 years ago. I know this isn't everyone's intention, but it is the end result. This is an unrealistic expectation of any MMO which is by definition a dynamic and changing environment. Furthermore, I believe a speed differential over time is a necessity for any aging online community. Just because someone hasn't been along for the journey since the beginning, doesn't mean they can't be made a valuable part of it moving forward. Look at virtually any MMO that hasn't shutdown and has been around for an extended period of time. The experience of the veterans will almost undoubtedly have been longer and more difficult then new players. Why? Because new blood is vital to any community without it the community will wither and die.

While balance may need to be tuned, kneejerk reactions at the point of the pitchforks of an angry mob is not an ideal solution. Changes should be weighed carefully and tested. Some veterans should try creating a new group with zero assistance from their other toons or anyone else and progress. Still think leveling up a fresh group is so quick and easy? Document your experience. Maybe there are somethings that are no duh to you that are unknown to others and that is why there is this divide in perception between those currently working in the lower tiers and those wanting it nerfed. Just remember there is still tons and tons and tons of grind on the server.  No need to try and burn people out on the low tiers.


This is just my two cents on the matter. I just wanted to express my point of view from the other side of the wall.

That side being a newer player of a 6 man group.
/played time 53 days (1,272 hours) I get pulled away a lot so let's say somewhere between 50%-75% actually playing that's 636-954 hours.
Working on T5, Group has their 4.5 epics, Strike Augs, Finishing UC's, RoAs 299-374, SoA 10, and Just got first UW1 on War.

In summary the pitchfork wielding mob needs to chill and Hate needs to make the changes he feels are best in his own time and not be rushed.

I'm nothing close to a veteran player, only been on this server alittle over 6 months. The only reason I stayed on this server is because the veteran players actually help the newbies a lot. Way more than any other game I have ever played before.

It's almost daily when you can log on and you'll see the veteran players giving out their rot loots or bosses when they're farming essences. I had more assistance from the vet players than I could ask for right when I hit T1.

Alot of times when these guys go farm essences in the lower tiers they'll be in public killing and they'll let you loot everything except the essences. You just gotta hope when you're in zone a Vet shows up with a thousand coins or whatever ready to take down a few hundred bosses.

It's the Vets that actually makes the game alot easier. When I first started I thought it would take me years before I hit max level with the best gear and it only took 4 months. If it wasn't for the vets I'd probably be in T6 now. As long as you're not some douche always begging or spamming in OOC they'll help or answer questions.

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