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Author Topic: New Player Experience - Not making players feel like they're wasting time  (Read 10537 times)
Knorgar
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« on: March 18, 2020, 10:51:01 pm »
Hi All!

I'm fairly new here, and I appreciate all the support you've given over ooc!

As I'm progressing, I am finding there are certain stages of progression that are long, tedious, and essentially a waste of time. They make me feel like there is no point to the progress I've made and I shouldn't be bothering even playing.

For example:

I, like so many others, box multiple toons. I of course want all of these toons to progress together. This means that each toon is going through each stage of progression together. One of these stages is the Guild progression (Fighter's, Casters, Crafters).

While working on the Fighter's Guild tasks, each toon, who wants their stats maxed, needs to complete the quest. Great! I love that I have a short term goal with a tangible reward.

While gathering the items, you have to gather the items from mobs of various levels. By the time Fighter's Guild is needed to progress your character, you're very likely level 70. This means that all of the mobs it's asking you to kill are trivial. They offer literally zero challenge.

Dragoon Dirk? Ok, I'll go kill Ambassador Dvinn 6 times. At least I can use instances and he is guaranteed spawn. Only takes about an hour.

Bronze Shield? Same zone, same instance. But now the Bronze Shield is not a guaranteed drop. So I have to kill him every time (one shot with any level 70 toon, of course), and hope he drops it. This step, for 6 toons, took me 2-3 hours to camp a grey mob with a group of level 70 toons.

Dwarven Work Boots are up next. I love this zone! But I'm stuck here, killing level 28 Place Holder mobs with my group of level 70s. I have yet to have the named mob spawn. One he does, I'll be 1/6th (16.6%) completed. It has been about 40 minutes with no spawns.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that this quest is not challenging, boring, and extremely long. I don't mind camping for a mob, trying to get a good drop I can use. But when I'm sitting on mobs 40 levels below me waiting for a named to spawn 6 times over, then I wonder why I'm playing. This is *not* playing the game, and its certainly not enjoyable. However, there is currently no way around it.

LDoNs for 2.0 are similar, although you at least earn AAxp and some gear slot upgrades in LDoNs. This makes it feel like you are actually progressing while doing the same LDoNs 6 times. AAs come quickly and easily enough that the "reward" for doing lengthy LDoNs 6 times is diminished.

Proposed Simple Solutions
It is exciting and fun to run around Norrath killing off old nemesis. However, we should turn that grueling experience that drives players away into a one time trek through the past.

The mobs that drop Quest items need to drop 3-6 of those quest items.

This will ensure players are still moving through the content and enjoying it while still acting as a time gate. Instead of camping 2-6 hours for a grey mob pop/drop, they only need to do it once or twice.

Mobs that are always up and have guaranteed drops could drop 3 quest items.

Mobs that have a PH should drop 6 quest items.

Mobs that give XP and Loot at lower levels should drop 2-6 quest items (progression dependent. This is a smaller issue)

I very clearly have not experienced everything this server has to offer so I can only speak to what I have engaged in. I'm sure there are probably other areas that served the player base well in the past that could use a simple and easy to implement update.

There is no enjoyable game play in camping mobs that present no challenge and offer no rewards. It only serves to drive players away from the game. Especially when these camps end up taking days. I can't help but think I wish I was elsewhere in Norrath battling and progressing. Not performing a single attack every 15 minutes for 6 hours a day.

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shawnluc
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2020, 12:02:20 am »
The FG/CG is a filter, and not the last one.  If this is too much of a grind, this is probably not the server for you.
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Brannyn
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2020, 12:31:09 am »
I hate to be that guy, but there was a time when we didn't have the instances for farming FG/CG and had to hope nobody else was camping the mobs. It's annoying but it's nothing compared to how it was and it's designed to be a wall that helps filter out people who probably wouldn't enjoy the server.
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Hank Hill
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2020, 05:02:32 am »
Yeah. This server is FILLED with moments that makes you wanna quit, but the reward is great, so when you get over that hurdle, then you enjoy the next content alot more then just a quick fix. This is a server that either makes you stay, or kills your joy fast. I started my chars back in 08, and im stuck in T10. Not maxed at all. i to take long breaks like the rest of people here, its just the name of the game... EverQuest!

But keep at it bro! Im sure you will come to like it, and as i told you last evening, most people will help you and like i did, make free instance so you can jump around and farm faster.
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sjobidoo
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2020, 07:57:44 am »
There might be a time where it was all about the grind. But does it have to be that way forever? Seen some threads regarding dwindling serverpopulation etc.. I was one of those who more or less gave up as I found the whole grind a bit too monotone and boring.. So the server might then not be for me.. Just shooting in here..why not see to some alternative progression lines so encourage new players? Just my 2cpp
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Poker-ecaf
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 08:53:08 am »
but i can agree that the mobs maybe to low and need a little upgrade that isnt a level 70 oneshot anymore maybe that helps XD
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mercarsist28
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2020, 10:09:28 am »
As stated this quest is meant to be kind of a filter, and in some ways a throwback to how EQ used to be for a lot of people.  One thing that you can do since like 90% of the items are tradable is sitting a toon at a camp spot that you need for each spot and then use the rest to progress through LDON.  Sometimes if I dont have the time to dedicate to playing all 6 toons in a higher tier I will have them sit at these spots for a new toon or something and then use my main and the new toon on progression.
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Knorgar
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 01:17:21 pm »
I understand and appreciate that many of the people who have been here for longer went through this. However that doesn't make it good, rewarding or engaging gameplay.

My issue isn't with a grind. I, like many of you, have been playing since 99' and the grind is why I keep coming back. My issue is that the gameplay aspect is to hit a mob once every 15 minutes...and then nothing. The mobs die in one hit and offers nothing.

There is no benefit to this system. You mention a filter, but why do we want to filter out players? Don't we want to bring players in? Emu populations certainly aren't going up.

I want to be out in Norrath battling beasties, getting loot, and leveling up my characters. Instead, I'll be spending weeks doing a single attack every 15 minutes. I'm loving this server and the community, as my playtime can attest to. But this is just not fun, and I don't believe that anyone finds camping a single grey mob for hours is either.

There is no benefit to the server to keep things the way they are just because they've always been that way. This is low-hanging fruit to improve the experience and to get people out there enjoying all the custom content and progression.
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shawnluc
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2020, 01:29:41 pm »
If the FG/CG takes you weeks your doing it wrong...at most it should take you 3-6 hours total for a full group.
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Knorgar
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2020, 03:02:29 pm »
If that's true, please let me know how. I will kiss you!

Getting 6 Bronze Shields in Crushbone last night took 3 hours. Getting the Dwarven Boots took 4. I'm now camping spawns and PHs in Lguk. With each camp taking between 2-6 hours of constant attention, I'll be here for a long time.

I think 3-6 hours each or total is a very reasonable and fun experience to run through Norrath. My suggested change up above would turn them into exactly what you just mentioned.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 03:08:24 pm by Knorgar » Logged
Xatok
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2020, 03:40:46 pm »
The part of the 'strategy' that you seem to be missing from your posts is fully utilizing the instance system. You mention waiting 15 minutes for a respawn? Even without instances, that shouldn't be the case. You have 6 characters all capable of sitting at 6 different spawns. But you also have 6 characters, all capable of creating a new instance every 2 minutes, capable of respawning each individual instance every 10 minutes, capable of deleting an instance every 10 minutes. In the span of 2 minutes you can have created 12 separate guk instances that you can now cycle in between, including repopping. If you somehow deal with all 12 of those and start hitting repopinstance/deleteinstance timers, just start working on another zone, don't sit and wait on timers. It's a pretty gross use of the instance system, but the design of FG/CG and EoN's encourage it. FG/CG definitely sucked bad before instances when you had to actually wait for respawns, but nowadays a new player can just farm a few sls, sell them, and have enough money to spam instances through FG/CG.
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Brannyn
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2020, 04:16:00 pm »
FG/CG end up being a really good introduction to the instance system because of how much you have to kill the same mobs over and over again. If you haven't already used and learned the basics of the instance system from spawning terrorantula then FG/CG is the best place to get into it. You WILL be using it constantly so use this chance to learn it.
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mercarsist28
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2020, 04:26:55 pm »
Also not every character needs to be in the FG, casters should be in CG, melee in FG, and hybrid in both if you are so inclined, mainly SK and beast lord as they can use the pet buff advantage and weapons on pets.  You only need to have 1 char in the crafters guild and they can make everything to pass out to the rest of your group. The only items that are no drop is the 1st tier of the strike augs.  You might need to do 2 char if you are going pali/sk and warrior for the shield but that is it.  Only 1 char needs a mask of the ages for the entire group.
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Knorgar
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2020, 04:55:33 pm »
Thanks for the tips everyone!

As I mentioned in the original post, I am using the instance system and I have become familiar with it. However, I did not realize that you could get a duplicate instance every 2 minutes. Seems like a hell of a server strain! I will give that a try and report back.

As I sit here with 8 dead PH for Arch Mage, I do still believe that shortening (not eliminating) this process has nothing but benefits for players and for the server population. Keeping the drop rates as-is does not encourage server growth or character growth.
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mercarsist28
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2020, 05:10:58 pm »
As a side note as well you can donate for the flag and that helps the server maintenance.
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