FG/CG Items No Drop?

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[Isaaru]

i dont think he had to try to make reed look like a jerk.

Agreed.  Reed went off the deep end with the name calling.

[Reed]

If you have to make them lore or no-trade, so be it.  Also, make it against the Rules of Conduct to sell no-drop items.  That way those of us who want to PLAY THE GAME can have fun going down and getting our items.  The CG/FG items in particular are part of almost a required progression on this server, so it is very lucrative for those people who are camping them 24/7.  That in itself should be your answer as to why these need to be no-drop.

Looks like you're trying to say "Hey lets make it against the rules to camp an item unless that character camping it is the one who needs it" to me. Just saying.

[Balthor2]

QQ I joined the EASY SERVER and shits not easy enough for me so I should impose on the rest of the server a new rule that would only cause harm in the long run.

-
Hey props if you want to camp items on your own. I did it for my first 6 or 8 sets of guild items. After that the server population went from 150s to 400s and it just sucks. It is a better use of my time to offer to run you through qvic (20min for me) and kill TT for you.
You the new player that is not able to get 3.0 at this point in time just got 3.0 flagged and a 3.0 book while I got my set of guild items for my newest alt.
Anyone that thinks this is bad is a few fries short of a happy meal.

[Isaaru]

QQ I joined the EASY SERVER and shits not easy enough for me so I should impose on the rest of the server a new rule that would only cause harm in the long run.

-
Hey props if you want to camp items on your own. I did it for my first 6 or 8 sets of guild items. After that the server population went from 150s to 400s and it just sucks. It is a better use of my time to offer to run you through qvic (20min for me) and kill TT for you.
You the new player that is not able to get 3.0 at this point in time just got 3.0 flagged and a 3.0 book while I got my set of guild items for my newest alt.
Anyone that thinks this is bad is a few fries short of a happy meal.

I prefer apple slices   

[Akora]

I think FG/CG items should all be Lore but Notrade would make them  to hard to aquire .. i have spent 8 hours camping 1 item be4 .. as it is now  u can simply buy a item that ur missing  for 20-40k or run someone thru Qvic or tacvi. Making them all Lore will prevent people form stock piling them (like what people do to KD's)  if they where temporary, You would HAVE to get ALL of the items in 1 day be4 u logged off or they would Poof. that would be incredibly hard for alot of the beginners. And for the economy side of them,  If they all could be bought   even if they are Lore  there would be alot of plat swapping hands (even more so if the spawn rates and drop rates where faster/more often)
 
So my vote would be to making them all tradable/lore

Im Sure alot of this has been said already.

[Akora]

For the people saying CG/FG camping to trade for Qvic runs is essential to progress... No it's not.  Paying someone to gear you up in gear you in stuff far ahead of what you would get by grouping/boxing your way up is BYPASSING progression. If the items became no-drop then you might actually have to GROUP or maybe even (OMG WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT!?!) join a guild to get gear that's too difficult or time consuming to get solo/boxed.

I Ran/Run a guild Called Mist Soulkeepers. and be4 my short LOA, ALL i would do every day is run Qvic and Tacvi for my members we went from just my brother and I to 200 members in  2 short weeks  and stayed there till  i was unable to login.  i get what your saying about how People think they need CG/FG items to pay for Qvic and tacvi what they really need is a guild who will HELP them and inspire them to advance.  MS is not Full time Recruiting BUT if anyone needs a Qvic/tacvi run .. Send Celli/Akora/Cronec a tell when i am online and if i am free i will run you thru.

[Gantrathor]

Reed jumping Longdarkhair was the douche move, not LDH's comments.  He's just stating his opinion.  Sure, Reed (or anyone else) has the right to rebutal.  Putting words in LDH's mouth, telling him he's anti-social and to go play another game because his prefered method of play doesn't match Reed's = douchebag.

And yes, if the items are made No Drop it would be for the intent of stopping the endless camps for personal gain.  So saying you should not be able to then sell the loot rights to them only follows.  If they're No Drop but you can sell loot rights, very little has been accomplished.

CG/FG items are needed for progression.  You cannot get your 2.5 without them.  They're the ONLY progression items in the game that are not No Drop.  Does anyone think we should be able to camp Qvic bosses to sell the tokens?  Pages in LDoN or Time?  Rights to the Tikis in T1 and T2?

Hunter's rules include:  Play Nice, Use Common Sense, Don't Grief.  He recently had to institute a rule in PoD that you get the Tiki one time and then let anyone else camping it have a shot because people were locking them down.  His intention is pretty clear.  Don't Lockdown spawn to inhibit progression.  While I don't think people are locking down the CG/FG items simply to prevent others from moving forward, the result is the same.  People can't progress if someone sits at the same spot farming a progression item all day.  Hunter shouldn't have to make it a rule to allow others a chance to progress.  It falls under the Play Nice and Use common sense parts.  

Yes, I realize this will ruin the only real economy this server has.  Progression isn't supposed to be part of the economy.  If Hunter want's a true economy, he can institute something tradeable that is cool, fun, and helpful to progression that's tradeable.  But not something that's necessary.

[Xiggie | Stone]

Ok, lets look at this. Really, how much sense does it make for there to be a rule banning selling loot rights? What other even remotely mainstream game has a rule like this? There are none. And to say that progression should not be part of the economy is incredibly naive. They are both an intricate part of any mmorpg and therefore are inherently part of one another. People use the economy in any mmorpg to progress, people progress to better use the economy. The reason why those items are so valuable in the economy is because they are required to progress.

Furthermore I would like to add the fg/cg items help to link new players to more experienced players. It gives new players a bargaining chip to not only get help getting gear/quests done but also knowledge experience that they get from grouping with someone who has the benefit of more server experience than they have. Making these items no drop would only make the gap between ldon and qvic and then tacvi to PoD even larger. Although it would be an irritation for people who have been here longer and have the resources to camp several mobs it would have an even larger negative impact on new characters. When someone comes along and makes an obviously shortsighted post it is pretty distressing.

Incidentally, Reed did not put any words in anyone's mouth or even twist anyone's words. He simply stated what his suggestion amounted to. Failure to see that means you are either incredibly simple or you were just looking for a reason to call someone names.

[Gantrathor]

Or it means we don't agree on this issue.  I'm ok with that.  That's why Hunter wants the debate.  In my opinion, based on his posts and rules in the past, Hunter doesn't want people camping progression items to sell the loot rights.  I don't think they should either.  It's not naive to think progression shouldn't be for sale.  It's a different point of view.  It will solve some problems and create others.  You're absolutely right, it will widen the LDoN/Qvic gap considerably.  In fact, it will put it back to where it was when the server was young, except the spawn is quicker now.  But progression being for sale leads to other abuses and problems that Hunter doesn't want and frankly, shouldn't have to deal with.  Since he can't be on all the time to police us, and we obviously won't police ourselves, hard choices have to be made.

As to Reed didn't put words into anyones mouth, Reed wrote "Against the rules to camp an item?  Dude stop talking."  Nowhere in LDH's post did he say there should be a rule against camping items.  He said if you do have to make the items Lore/No Drop make sure people can't sell the loot rights to them.  So yeah, Reed did put words in his mouth.

Reed later clarified when he said "Looks like you're trying to say "Hey lets make it against the rules to camp an item unless that character camping it is the one who needs it" to me. Just saying." 

But that is not how he put it in his original reply.  And that too is similar to how I read that statement, except I don't think it precludes camping with one toon and looting with another (ie Mage CotH as has been already discussed).  Which, based on the problem we're trying to solve, is correct.

[Isaaru]

The current system was built around a certain population.  The population since then has doubled/tripled so a new system (an alternate progression path in the form of the same or alternate drops in alternate zones) needs to be added or the current system needs to be adjusted. 

Another set or sets of zones where we can camp CG/FG items would be ideal.  I dislike instances but understand their uses.

[Xiggie | Stone]

Also, make it against the Rules of Conduct to sell no-drop items.

Against the rules to camp an item?

These are the two quotes that we are talking about. You see, this is what is called pulling a technical. Because Reed did not mirror his words word for word what ldh said you are accusing him of putting words into ldh's mouth. It is reasonable to assume that he is referring to his suggestion of no camping for profit. I think most reasonable people would get that from Reeds statement. As I already said, the only reason to not make that reasonable assumption is if your simple or if your just plain looking for an excuse to call someone names.

The reason I said that thinking that progression should not be for sale was incredibly naive is because it is a part of every remotely mainstream game out there. To try to take it out is frankly impossible. Sure you can put a no trade tag on those, but in some form or another progression will be for sale.

As far as inserting Hunters name into your post to give your ideas credence, I am not even going to touch that. You prolly shouldn't either.

[Gantrathor]

I don't see a technical at all.  You're taking the first quote out of context, as did Reed.  You have to use the preceding sentence "If you have to make the items Lore/No Drop, so be it."  In that context, the next sentence makes perfect sense.  If A must happen, you will need to do B or nothing will have been gained.  He's absolutely correct in that.  So saying he said "Against the rules to camp an item?" was certainly putting words in his mouth.  And you were the one who said ldh was trying to make Reed look bad and it was a 'douche move.'  ldh was fairly defending himself, not being technical.  So let's be careful with who's simple or looking for an excuse to name call.

As to bringing Hunter's name into it...it's Hunter's post.  He put up the poll and asked for the opinions.  I'm not attemping to legitimize my posts by using his name.  And you'll note I was very careful not to speak for him.  It's still absolutely all my opinion.

[Xiggie | Stone]

You made assumptions about what Hunter does or does not want and then linked his name to your own opinions. Call it whatever you want to, but that is exactly what you did. But because I reworded what you did, I am sure I will be accused of putting words in your mouth.

As for the rest of the post, I stand by what I said. I'm done.

[Gantrathor]

That's cool.  I stand by mine as well.

[Thyl]

Sorry to interrupt the argument  

My opinion is that the items should all be Lore but remain tradeable. I don't think them being tused in trade is a bad thing because it helps provide some sort of economy, which adds to the game, and it allows newer users a way of getting assistance other than pure begging/leaching.

I would like to see them Lore because it might disuade people from stockpiling one type of item just to sell it exclusively.  While I can see it within a person's rights for being at a camp either way I look at it very differently getting items for multiple toons you have present versus just cornering a resource to sell.  One is kind of a necessity with the other being a lazy and somewhat inconsiderate way of progressing.

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