How bout a Semi-Ultimate charm?

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[qualin]

Maybe the ability to have levels of Ultimate charm, 1-25?  Combine 4 level 25's into an ultimate 1, then combine the ultimate 1 and X number of gems into an ultimate 2. 

I see the Ultimate Charm as more of a "Big Finale" rather than something you gain incrementally.  It's just a finale not most of us can reach without boxing a group. I can farm the heck out of LDoN for charm upgrades, even though its boring and I want to claw my eyes out.

I'd rather see a combine of 2 Semi-Ultimate charms for 1 ultimate.  This however would encourage more LDoN farming, something I assure you is pretty crowded as it is. 

[Crabthewall]

I can certainly see the appeal of this item to many, on the flip side I can see why you wouldn't do it. Not all items are meant to be achievable by all people, I'd guess epic 4 for instance will be beyond many players ability to get. Ultimate charm is something like that, it's meant to be the absolute end all charm, so have a "lesser" version may cheapen it, especially if you can get that version and still progress with minimal or no penalty to getting the full version.

It's a tough balancing act I'd imagine for Hunter to figure out, people can get charms, and really people can farm in halls of honor with a few other players splitting stones, there isn't a real reason why they can't once they get past t2. It may not be easy or with their class choices it may really be tougher, but no one is saying it can't be done.

Of course warriors/clerics make it easier, but I'd guess sk or pally with clerics and dps classes would be able to do it without issue too. Just like in regular EQ there are always class dependencies and clerics are one of those classes that are essential, no way round that. Warriors aren't required for hoh, could be done with a sk.

[istvaan]

Of course warriors/clerics make it easier, but I'd guess sk or pally with clerics and dps classes would be able to do it without issue too. Just like in regular EQ there are always class dependencies and clerics are one of those classes that are essential, no way round that. Warriors aren't required for hoh, could be done with a sk.

Quite true, I can handle all the trash near the zone in easily with on my T2 geared SK with just a single cleric spamming AHL.

[qualin]

I appreciate all the dialogue that's going back and forth about this. I promise I try to approach it in a balanced way, because in the end we all want balance.  Illustrating the case for something that's fair and balanced is going to have the best chances to get put in the game.

I'd guess epic 4 for instance will be beyond many players ability to get. Ultimate charm is something like that, it's meant to be the absolute end all charm, so have a "lesser" version may cheapen it

There are already 200 lesser versions of the ultimate charm technically.

It's a tough balancing act I'd imagine for Hunter to figure out

I'm sure it is.  I would just hope that content is designed in a way that considers both types of players. Those that run their own group, and ones that have to find a group that will grant them loot rights.

I'm full T2 geared, and I honestly got that way by riding the coat tails of people that box.  As a ranger I made myself as useful to them as I possibly could, don't peg me as a vulture. In the end though, I always understood that it was they who had loot rights first and I picked up the scraps. Some people are way cool about it though, especially since a lot of gear is class specific.  Everyone wants Cyans though~

As for a pickup group of single boxers in T3.  Let me know when you see one.

[Crabthewall]

I appreciate all the dialogue that's going back and forth about this. I promise I try to approach it in a balanced way, because in the end we all want balance.  Illustrating the case for something that's fair and balanced is going to have the best chances to get put in the game.

I'd guess epic 4 for instance will be beyond many players ability to get. Ultimate charm is something like that, it's meant to be the absolute end all charm, so have a "lesser" version may cheapen it

There are already 200 lesser versions of the ultimate charm technically.

It's a tough balancing act I'd imagine for Hunter to figure out

I'm sure it is.  I would just hope that content is designed in a way that considers both types of players. Those that run their own group, and ones that have to find a group that will grant them loot rights.

I'm full T2 geared, and I honestly got that way by riding the coat tails of people that box.  As a ranger I made myself as useful to them as I possibly could, don't peg me as a vulture. In the end though, I always understood that it was they who had loot rights first and I picked up the scraps. Some people are way cool about it though, especially since a lot of gear is class specific.  Everyone wants Cyans though~

As for a pickup group of single boxers in T3.  Let me know when you see one.

Why not ask others in the same boat as you to join in, looks like several just on this thread? Working together or in a guild is part of the game or creating a large enough box army to do it yourself, the ultimate charm may not be designed to be achievable without a group or a box army and that may be as intended, I just don't know on that.

I don't consider the lesser charms to be versions of the ultimate I'm afraid, so we differ on that point, they are leaps and bounds different from the ultimate.

[robpickles]

Why not ask others in the same boat as you to join in, looks like several just on this thread? Working together or in a guild is part of the game or creating a large enough box army to do it yourself,

Another good reason for the "LFG Meeting Place" that i have been pitching by the entrance to SFG.

Go there, meetup with people with same needs, go play!

[istvaan]

Truthfully I just don't like this idea because LDoN 6 is already crowded enough as it is. We don't need another dozen warriors trying their hardest to crash the zone in there =p

[qualin]

Why not ask others in the same boat as you to join in, looks like several just on this thread? Working together or in a guild is part of the game or creating a large enough box army to do it yourself, the ultimate charm may not be designed to be achievable without a group or a box army and that may be as intended, I just don't know on that.

I'll concede that it's possible, if you agree the time sink and difficulty is extremely greater.

Example (I'm just throwing some numbers out there to illustrate):
1 person boxing 5 toons, with 1 stone every 5 minutes = 1 cyan for a main every 1h20m.

5 people with 5 mains, taking turns looting stones, 1 stone every 5 minutes = 1 cyan for a main every 6h20m

Time sink for boxer above to get Ultimate = 66h40m
Time sink for a non-boxer above to get Ultimate = 316h40m

The return on investment is extremely diminished if you are a single boxer. I might as well not worry about it.

[robpickles]

That only works out if the 5 boxers are working torwads one toon.  If each toon was getting their own, it would be exactly the same for anyone - boxed or grouped.

And that is my problem with boxing in general.... It promotes playing with yourself (sorry - no pun intended) - Not grouping with individuals to better the community.

[Crabthewall]

Why not ask others in the same boat as you to join in, looks like several just on this thread? Working together or in a guild is part of the game or creating a large enough box army to do it yourself, the ultimate charm may not be designed to be achievable without a group or a box army and that may be as intended, I just don't know on that.

I'll concede that it's possible, if you agree the time sink and difficulty is extremely greater.

Example (I'm just throwing some numbers out there to illustrate):
1 person boxing 5 toons, with 1 stone every 5 minutes = 1 cyan for a main every 1h20m.

5 people with 5 mains, taking turns looting stones, 1 stone every 5 minutes = 1 cyan for a main every 6h20m

Time sink for boxer above to get Ultimate = 66h40m
Time sink for a non-boxer above to get Ultimate = 316h40m

The return on investment is extremely diminished if you are a single boxer. I might as well not worry about it.

Your numbers are right, but even if multiboxing you aren't always putting all your cyans on one toon, often splitting between your 2 or 3 warriors for example, so that's not accurate really. The key is it would take you exactly as long as it would take a person boxing that is upgrading all their toon which means it is fair in essence. I couldn't agree more about the nature of the time sync though, it's HUGE but given the item stats I think it is intended to require a huge investment also.

[qualin]

Your numbers are right, but even if multiboxing you aren't always putting all your cyans on one toon, often splitting between your 2 or 3 warriors for example, so that's not accurate really. The key is it would take you exactly as long as it would take a person boxing that is upgrading all their toon which means it is fair in essence. I couldn't agree more about the nature of the time sync though, it's HUGE but given the item stats I think it is intended to require a huge investment also.

I absolutely agree with you, the time sink to get it for any 1 toon is equal. The only difference lies in the odds of finding a pickup group vs the finality of boxing an entire group it would further compound the situation.

Same above numbers, adding in additional variable of finding a group:

This time lets assume each real person only wants 1 ultimate charm for 1 character.

1 person boxing 5 toons, with 1 stone every 5 minutes, divided by 100% chance to get a group = 1 cyan for a main every 1h20m.

5 people with 5 mains, taking turns looting stones, 1 stone every 5 minutes, divided by 80% chance to get a group = 1 cyan for a main every 7h54m

Time sink for boxer above to get Ultimate = 66h40m
Time sink for a non-boxer above to get Ultimate = 395hours

That's given a generous 80% chance to get a group.
Run the numbers with 50% chance, the time increases to  632hours.

Given the server population and play habits, what do you think is a realistic chance of finding HoHonor pickup groups?

I'm just pleading the case for an item that would be equally obtainable.  This is assuming that every class can pretty much solo LDoN, and the variability of finding a group is removed. The end reward would be less as well.

[istvaan]

It honestly just seems unnecessary compared to all the other things that could be done on the server, like improve balance and add new custom content.

...and LDoN6 crashes so damn often that it really can't handle any added traffic.

[qualin]

It honestly just seems unnecessary compared to all the other things that could be done on the server, like improve balance and add new custom content.

...and LDoN6 crashes so damn often that it really can't handle any added traffic.

I agree,

I guess since I just got my guardian 25, I'm just looking for a tangible goal I can do on my own.

[Crabthewall]

I'm just pleading the case for an item that would be equally obtainable.  This is assuming that every class can pretty much solo LDoN, and the variability of finding a group is removed. The end reward would be less as well.

I guess this is where we part ways opinion wise. I don't think all items should be able to equally obtainable to all. Some items are hugely powerful and require sacrifice or hard work, and even working with others to get to, and given that we both agree it isn't impossible to get there as even a solo player it seems reasonable to me.

You won't be able to solo for an epic 4 either, or t3/t4 armor as well. Now perhaps at some point t3/t4 armor will rot, but epic 4's likely will not. That doesn't mean you add another way to get there, you simply figure out how to work within a group to get there if you can't do it on your own, imho.

[Thyl]

I guess this is where we part ways opinion wise. I don't think all items should be able to equally obtainable to all. Some items are hugely powerful and require sacrifice or hard work, and even working with others to get to, and given that we both agree it isn't impossible to get there as even a solo player it seems reasonable to me.

You won't be able to solo for an epic 4 either, or t3/t4 armor as well. Now perhaps at some point t3/t4 armor will rot, but epic 4's likely will not. That doesn't mean you add another way to get there, you simply figure out how to work within a group to get there if you can't do it on your own, imho.

I feel the same way. I'm a big proponent of people getting things worth while for the work they put in. Even if these circumstances will likely exclude me from getting these items for a long time if ever.

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