Ultimate Weapon Discussion

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[hateborne]

+1 to what Rent said.

I would also add much of this is around expectation management.  If the UW is nerfed because it appears to be game breaking, what about ROA 1000, Experience Mask, Ultimate Charms, Shield of Ages, and the mitigation from the buff pet and warrior epic.  Do these also require balancing to "fix the game"?  Will there be future changes to these items as well?

Heh undercurrent of aggression.

No, nothing else causes such a gigantic disruption in health and resist pools as the Ultimate Weapon. Once this one quest line is done, some of the hilariously high resists on many things will come down (both on items and npc checks). The net result of those change would be less total resist on character, no more arbitrarily high resist checks.

Despite what this probably looks like, I'm actually trying to make the game more enjoyable.


-Hate

[Gannicus]

I mean hey, majority is with you 100% of the way with the changes up until you mention white damage taking a hit. The justification for swinging at the resists and hps are there and most agree, but it seems there are no real common grounds on the white damage as it isn't as justifiable considering you can replace that dps easily with a group ; the dps can be there if you want , so why not let the people who already invested the time into it the dps they worked for so they didn't have to invest in a second or third group to pump the equivalent.

I do know you mentioned bringing hps down across the tiers and all that jazz but if you think about it ; if you do that, am I still clearing  X zone as fast as I was previously given the changes? If not, that's a problem.

[Viciouss]

I've been sitting back watching this go on from a distance for a while, kind of feeling like I didn't have a dog in this fight because I'm not a UW holder. Still made it to T7, and then some with the assistance of the very helpful Rent and Raygan. So then, bored at work, for the last 24 hours I decided to start farming and trading up for Qvic essences. Just to see how quickly I could get to 100, so I'd have at least some basis to post on.

~12 play hours. That's all it took. It sucked, but it happened. EOP and EoFS are another matter, sure, but I've gotten a few of those just by doing resist farming. Higher tier essences will suck too, I'm also sure. I have no doubt that the people who are in the upper tiers of the UW dedicated a lot of time to getting it. That being said, lets look at some of the major things that I know a lot of us have spent time on. Specifically things that have been "nerfed" and "beneficially implimented" since the start of my play time in early 2012.

-Shadow unlimited warp (Also, unfortunately the mob used to farm v2 charm upgrades.) Changed to ~4 Max
-Added ToFS and introduced massively higher drop rates for v1 charm upgrades
-Increased v2 charm upgrades from trash mobs; Introduced in multiple zones
-MCP deathtouch removed, making progression past T4 easier.
-LDoN train farming for POINTS, with the occasional charm upgrade is no longer the norm
-Lore, unstackable tiki crystals changed to stackable, allowing much easier and faster T1/2 clears.
-2 hour T5 wrist mob timers dropped to 30 minutes
-SLS stackable, GLS drop rate increased

Absolutely sure I'm missing a ton of other notables, but you get the point. The vast majority of people can read the above list and say, "Man, the way it used to be was like pulling teeth." UCV1 sucked. T5 wrist progression sucked. SLS farming still sucks.

All of the above implementations were made at the discretion of, like, TWO people working hard as hell to make content for you to enjoy; Their adjustments were made to make it so that it wasn't so easy you quit, but it also wasn't so difficult and mentally taxing  that you quit, either. With the exception of the SLS. This is exactly the scenario here and needs to be seen from the opposite end of the road. What's coming isn't a nerf, it's a general increase in progress ability across the board while still allowing the dedicated players to keep a significant chunk of their rewards from horizontal progression. Hate spelled that out clear as day. I didn't expect a refund for the time spent on UCV1 when they made it easier, and had I done UW, I wouldn't expect one either. That's now how it works. So here are my thoughts.

Implementation ideas:

Bring white damage to a level identical to what you would see out of a fully geared, secondary DPS group of 5 of that tier with augs. This allows for you to make reliable and fair increases for tiers to come based on hard numbers. Plus, this'll stop people vetoing an adjustment because they did it so that they didn't have to make a second group. It smashes the validity of their argument.

Bring HP to = Sum of all visible armor for the current tier. T7 visible armor gives you 500k HP? 500k HP on UW requiring that tiers essences. A significant boost in HP and still not game-breaking, especially if you're breaking into T8 with it.

Bring Heroic resists to ((Current Tier Minimum Resists - Average Innate Resists)*.60). UCv1/2/3 plus a handful of farmed augs would take care of the rest. This would allow UW holders to keep resisting everything, while keeping our new, "beta" content from having a massive Zimbabwe-like inflation. It also allows the content to be adjusted in a way that the guy who wants to farm heroic resists instead of UW can still break in without a month of work in ToFS5. This is important to think about now before we start getting into the BILLIONS with HP and 10's of thousands in heroics.

[marxist]

bringing a uw to a groups dps would raise the dps of the uw... I'd not waste time on long exhaustive posts unless you are going to parse out what you are proposing.

[Poker-ecaf]

i like the UW will do

100k HP per rk.

50-100 Hero ressist per rk.

10 Hero stats per rk.

UW 1-5 same dmg as Monk whis UCv1 + NS same rk as UW
UW 6-9 same dmg as Monk whis UCv2 + NS same rk as UW
UW 10-11 same dmg as Monk whis UCv3 + NS same rk as UW

UW augments will upgrade dmg and co. that u will do a few more

Ultimate Heroic Augments that will do Heroic Resists 20 + Heroic Stats 5 per rk
Ultimate Proc Augment u can choose ( lifetap low proc dmg / AoE middle proc dmg / Focus Proc dmg high dmg )
Ultimate Click augment atm not an useful idea ! ( dmg / sw / heal / short doration pet )
Ultimate Focus Augment killshot heal / Killshot Mana / Killshot refresh buffs u already taked / Short Duration Pet

augments are quests like UW ( 10 essence + SLS + EoP + EoN per rank )

Ultimate Heroic Augment = UHA = UHA got rk I to X
Ultimate Proc Augment = UPA = UPA got rk I to X
Ultimate Click Augment = UCA = UCA got rk I to X
Ultimate Focus Augment = UFA = UFA got rk I to X

UPA I = ( lifetap = 500 / AoE = 1000 / Focus = 2000 ) /// UPA II = ( Lifetap = 750 / AoE = 1500  / Focus 3000 ) or anything like that ... that the dmg we got now are ok for focus dmg version and goes down to AoE version and again down to lifetap version ....

[Raygan]

bringing a uw to a groups dps would raise the dps of the uw... I'd not waste time on long exhaustive posts unless you are going to parse out what you are proposing.
 

 I think it was a good post...yes the amount for a whole group may be off a tad but hy blast the guys reasonable idea, unless you just being a douche bag troll?
 
 

[Chunka]

Just wanted to get the thread back on track again.....so I bring you a dear sweet man, Mr. Henry Winkler....



.....covered in bees!

[Expletus]

White DMG. Hell no we won't go!

[clbreastmilk]

To argue devil's advocate here and say that balancing dmg off the UW is required or even needed is a bit of a stretch (in my opinion).  The goal of an item with increased dmg is the benefit of shorter runs in higher tiered content (as anything you one shot with epic or UW doesn't count).  Lets say you balance a tier around people having UW, you then end up with people without it dropping off due to ridic clear times, or forced to roll additional toons (or get the UW, which we don't want forced).  That doesn't sound like a great option at all.

Other scenario and more logical one is you balance mob hp around a typical box that does Not have it.  In this situation, the UW just adds the benefit of reducing hardware resources/toons with added dps.  A lot of people got it originally for that extra hp as it was relatively needed for T8+.  It seems like the majority of players are all on board with that HP issue getting handled.  DPS just doesn't have that same across the board easy to see logic for any change.  You can argue that you want to change it to make it more in line with Epic's but what would the point be if you are going to stick to NOT balancing content around UW?  These took a Long time to get and you acknowledge this by starting this thread stating that their will be MASSIVE QQ and then stating you were surprised it hasn't been as bad as it was anticipated.

If reducing UW damage has anything to do with server or coding constraints needing less #'s in general, there are other options.  You could reduce T7 or T8 mob hp by as an example, 25%, and then the UW white damage by some other equiv % to keep the overall dps advantage from having the item, consistent, yet achieving a lower value total which can move into further content.  This brings the Epics you are making closer to the UW while still giving the UW an advantage (which it Should have). I'm indifferent to the augs, do whatever, tho I will warn that adding custom UW only augs may help to further people into getting a UW and have the potential to open up new problems down the road.  Allowing current augs in there could work, and may help balance a white damage reduction.

Having reread my post, I want to at least throw out there that iv been a big supporter of what you do for this server and this is just me throwing my 2 cents in this delicate issue, as you requested.  Not meant to be read as aggressive. 

[Akkadius]

Just wanted to say that the level of commitment from everyone in this thread is very cool. Instead of ripping on each other, people have been respectfully disagreeing and weighing their viewpoints and that is very cool to see everyone pull together considering recent circumstances.

Hate has most of the changes visualized and felt out in his mind. We've had a conversation about this and it's very sensitive nature and I have brought out things that I've experienced/observed in the past from a generalization standpoint. I think it is going in a direction it needs to, and since everyone is aware of it happening and even more-so everyone has an input on how these changes will be made makes it even better.

I have some analytics I plan to present to Hate from a statistical point of view that will help when it comes to crunch time of making the cuts. But making them happen in such a way a smoother transition can be made without putting down the insane amount of work people have put into this and at the same time carefully making sure that the reward factors and feelings of achievement are no different.

We appreciate everyone staying on topic (Most people anyways) and working together for a collaborative solution.

-Akka

[Viciouss]

bringing a uw to a groups dps would raise the dps of the uw... I'd not waste time on long exhaustive posts unless you are going to parse out what you are proposing.

My ideas were not posted as finite. I'll absolutely yield to you saying my numbers are way off. I simply don't know because I don't own one. I'd be happy to know what the UWVII / VIII / IX / X parses VS group parses are currently. The idea was given as a foundation to build off of. Make the UW equivalent to an agreed upon number of toons with augs within it's respective tier.

[marxist]

I think the real argument here is whether or not to lower the UW dmg, and most players don't see a good return on investment or any real need in terms of balancing content for doing so.  Finding a new spot to balance kind of takes away from that argument, and I replied to your post at 3 am, so apologies if that came across a tad blunt.  People keep posting ideas that seem out of left field for how to balance uw dmg, and a better question is this, why does it need to change?  To really start considering a tradeoff, I think we need to see the implementation ideas with the augments hate is proposing. We're trying to have a discussion without a lot of the information required to make an informed decision.  I don't recall anyone having issues with lowering hp or resists, so there is at least a level of trust that something fair will be implemented there.  With all that being said, I think we are left asking what is actually coming next.

[Chunka]

Yeah, I have to agree. White damage on the UW needs to stay as is. Hps, hell yes. Or....if you are reducing white damage you need to bring back the click damage in some form, or bump procs.

[Takishi]

White damage doesn't have to stay the same.....as long as the end result is the same. IE - nerf regent/mob health it would be a wash.

[Viciouss]

People keep posting ideas that seem out of left field for how to balance uw dmg, and a better question is this, why does it need to change?  

Future scaling. Not being blunt, but that's what it boils down to.

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