Ultimate Weapon Discussion

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[Expletus]

I honestly think if Hate could share some ideas about how the dmg compensation will work we would be less leery to harp on the white dmg.

Vic as it stands now. An UW8 has 80k white dmg and sword strike (proc) is at 82813.
At T7 my monk has an 10 and 9 strike aug, 275k and 225k with white dmg around 2500ish?

Warrior-
Keeze hit Practice Dummy for 1142819 points of non-melee damage.
Keeze hit Practice Dummy for 496878 points of non-melee damage.

white dmg:
You slash Practice Dummy for 2177398 points of damage.
You slash Practice Dummy for 1693558 points of damage.
You slash Practice Dummy for 422 points of damage.
You slash Practice Dummy for 483958 points of damage.
You slash Practice Dummy for 124 points of damage.

Monk-
Ninjitsu hit Practice Dummy for 3795000 points of non-melee damage.
Ninjitsu hit Practice Dummy for 3105000 points of non-melee damage.
Ninjitsu hit Practice Dummy for 1650000 points of non-melee damage.

white dmg:
You punch Practice Dummy for 48087 points of damage.
You punch Practice Dummy for 29 points of damage.
You punch Practice Dummy for 9908 points of damage.
You punch Practice Dummy for 8919 points of damage.
 

So from the looks of it taking that white dmg down is a HUGE chunk of my dps out the window.

[Kruciel]

Ultimate Weapon Discussion

• Build multiple versions of each zone for UW holders

Ooooooo are you going to add realm first achievements along with heroic mode? 

As for a real suggestion, if the damage on UW 9-11 post-nerf is still high enough to where warriors are worried about hitting the threat roll-over, would it be possible to get a swappable epic aug via the epic vendor that lacks the 50% threat mod on the stonewall? Currently I just use the Cowardice gem from t8 (-20%) and masked strength 3 (-50%) from the enchanter. I haven't lost threat on my warrior and haven't had any threat rollovers in t8 at all.

[tacl]

i didn't read past page 3 if i rehashed anyone else ideas i am sorry.

I am trying to think of a long tern solution. Long term UW is too complicated to keep in the game as it and keep scaling with new content. i dont like the idea of farming triviall content for 100's of hours to make a single item, that changes breaking new content. my best idea to not make the effort of everyone who completed the UW a waste is the following:

What ever the current UW max is make that the CAP for now on.

convert the UW  in to UA (Ultimate Augment), it would be forced on next upgrade or could be anytime if you dont want to upgrade it anymore.

make the UA have high damage, HP and heroic resists. it would be better than any current aug by a decent margin

Once the UW/UA is MAX level give those people free upgrades for their UA for like 5-10 tiers keep it at like double-triple NS damage.

eventually UW can die off.  it will be easier for the people running the server to balance. the UW is a hot topic. it needs a concrete solution to end the constant talk about it. once it is converted to an augment it would be best for warriors, other classes still see a nice gain from it. people that already have them will still have their damage and survivability greatly boosted. It would just less appealing for non-tanks going forward.

i like to add, i dont have a UW and never intended to farm one. i have a lot of respect for the people who put in the time, effort and/or money in to it. i just know hunter had a vision for the UW, he created it and later expressed regret for making it. i dont want to take anything away from the people who made it, i just feel it should be phased out long term.

[lookin]

why not scale the stats as an equivalent of a higher tier epic to give it a base point and then modify a proc or some dmg as needed from there?  this will give you something to truly start with as a base and what lvl content it would impact.
for example
UW1 = epic 3.0
uw2= epic 5.0
uw3= epic 7.0
at this point since it would get ridiculously high numbers in the end i think it should scale by one epic lvl
UW4=epic 8.0
UW5=epic9.0
UW6=epic 10.0
and so on

you can then add a proc on there depending on the weapon type to  increase damage or add survivabilty if its deemed neccesary

[marxist]

Well if the white damage is an issue somehow in balancing, would a proc not be?   Need more input about the issue with the damage, as I don't believe it is game breaking based on effort/investment required (especially with the ability to have put those resources into gearing alts)

[Nexxel]

Only reason that i could come up with White dmg vs Proc is White dmg as a norm cant be resisted. mind you there is still stone walls and such, but only thing off the top of my head after being up for 29hrs, LoL.

[Raygan]

Once the UW/UA is MAX level give those people free upgrades for their UA for like 5-10 tiers keep it at like double-triple NS damage.

This idea has merit as well. 

[Kruciel]

I don't really see the damage being an issue either, you could get more damage if you made augs with the 100 essences instead of the sword. The real issue is the HP. The reason the damage was so amazing on it earlier was the Warrior's Way t7+ bonus on chests. I didn't even feel like my UW was worth it until I got rank 7 with that BP. Now without the BP and without the AOE click, I'd imagine even UW 7 would be depressing damage wise.

I honestly think if Hate could share some ideas about how the dmg compensation will work we would be less leery to harp on the white dmg.

Vic as it stands now. An UW8 has 80k white dmg and sword strike (proc) is at 82813.
At T7 my monk has an 10 and 9 strike aug, 275k and 225k with white dmg around 2500ish?

At UW9, the proc makes a massive jump from 82.8k to 298k, surpassing both NS9 and NS10. If there was a damage nerf, I imagine it would just be to 9 and above. I don't really think 9 needs a nerf. It finally seems worth all the trouble at that point, but I see how the HP is game breaking. I'd be fine with making the HP maybe 20k above each epic per rank, something similar to this:

UW 1 = epic 1.0 + 20k hp
UW 2 = epic 2.0 + 40k hp
UW 3 = epic 3.0 + 60k hp
etc

[hateborne]

I'm not going to build duplicate items for sake of testing. I will build a UW9 of each item with the "new" stats for those that want to test (I'll have to manually hand it to you and destroy it to prevent you from dual wielding UWs....).

I will also try to build a spreadsheet today with the new values and post them in this thread to give a better idea. :-D


-Hate

[Kwai]

Would it be possible to try these out on Test before testing on Live?  Just thinking... get the rough balancing done there first to avoid the majority of carping.

[hateborne]

Ok, here is the mock-up that I'm currently looking at for UWs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjdPtSifsCeQdGNLNlNwb3JFRUhFZEtFbVdnVS1Cb1E&usp=sharing

The thing to keep in mind is the key to the right. The red groupings control the amount each value is multiplied by to get the new hp, damage, and proc values. I set it up this way to give you ladies/gents/trolls a before/after comparison view. They are obviously subject to change too. Right now, you may notice the damage lower in some places and higher in others. This is due to the goofy scaling of the current UWs. I know it doesn't make a ton of sense, but that's just the way they were setup after Hunter removed all my adjustments to them back in December.

I was unclear on what I was trying to say with the damage too. The white damage was too high in some causes which caused strange things. Certain effects (Ancestral Grudge for example) caused E X P L O S I V E dps with current UWs. The proc damage scales better currently as the bulk of the bloody server has been designed for/around augs. Overall, the weapon really isn't getting punished as bad as everyone has been complaining/threatening each other about.


-Hate

[Eruditeone]

85% HP reduction, 10% proc dmg reduction, and a 64% white dmg reduction?

[Dimur]

Regarding explosive dps with white dmg because of one spell, can't the same be said for the spell dmg when bard epic click mod and ench VT mods are applied to procs?  The benefit of AG on UW wielders could be mitigated by a longer lockout on the spell refresh easily enough, couldn't it?

Regarding Nexxel on the benefit of white dmg over spell dmg doesn't really apply since there's really nothing that resists the DD proc dmg from strike augs, not to mention that the white dmg is mitigated by mobs and their AC values...ie it hits for max dmg far less often than not.

I still contend that the net result needs to be at or very near zero sum change in dps with the UW.  It's been stated quite often in this thread that you get more benefit from the components required for UW when they are used for strike augs on additional alts, so if overall dps is in fact the mitigating factor the only way you can really address that is to limit the amount of toons that you can bring into a zone.  And if that's the direction that you decide to take with things, along with neutering the dps from UW, that warrants a seperate discussion thread.  If not, then I just don't see the issue on the current dps of the UW.

[Dimur]

Question regarding the UW weapon types, why is the bow the least altered white damage wise?  It goes from UWX bow dmg of 120k to 92k while the sword goes from 120k to 46k, staff goes from 170k to 86k.  Looking at the proc dmg, the sword gets ~ 10% bonus to 330k while the bow jumps up ~ 50 % from 280k to 550k.  Why the disparity in the adjustments to the different weapon types?

[Dimur]

Another thing to consider when using minor proc dmg increases to offset major white dmg decreases...procs will fire once per round while you can swing multiple times per round when applying white dmg to a mob, not trying to be fragmented with my posts here but just adding in observations as I consider them.

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