Ultimate Weapon Discussion

hateborne

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #150 on: April 15, 2014, 07:58:26 pm »

Quote from: Dimur on April 15, 2014, 07:39:23 pm

Nevermind, I think I understand it now...you set an arbitrary baseline for the tier based weapon dmg on UW and applied a mod to each weapon type, please advise if I am wrong.

I still am not seeing why so much love is given to an item (bow) that really only benefits one class to use when they already have access to NS augs while diminishing another class' benefit they get by using the UW since they have no access to strike augs except exceedingly weak IS augs.

Dim and rest,

I'm sorry, I assumed it would be clear. Seriously, this was my fault trying to do too much at work and in game. I am sorry. :-(

I added a basic example to explain that. The mods are HOW each item is scaled. Proc damage is matching Ninjastrike damage * Weapon's Proc Mod = End Result.

The damage is scaled (partially) off of the dropped items from each tier. This way the white damage is RELEVANTLY scaled off of the damage the rest are using. Again, I know the numbers are off and will welcome suggested values (provided they are reasonable, no 5.0 or 10.0 mods).

-Hate


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marxist

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #151 on: April 15, 2014, 07:59:53 pm »

The only thing the UW really provided an advantage with was survivability, and that got adjusted appropriately a while back. As for having a porsche that drives 160? Thats great, but having 20 civics driving 100 gets more things moved. The advantage is having 1 car that can go that fast versus having to balance 20. And if you already have 20, can bump to 30, etc.

I feel the better way to look at this is moving as much possible form point a -> b, because that is what you are trying to accumulate a lot of resources.

As for beating a tier before you enter it, I think that is a problem with the implementation not having a level cap or recommended level attached, which is not the same problem as the dps numbers themselves. I feel that you need to look at each problem with the weapon and identify solutions for each problem rather than a single fix for everything.


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Raygan

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #152 on: April 15, 2014, 08:12:20 pm »

Quote

Proc damage is matching Ninjastrike damage * Weapon's Proc Mod = End Result.

But that too is part of the issue. NS augs don't take nearly as many essences to make as a UW does. The cost to benefit seems to be going to just making another monk or bard or (insert ns class here). It just seems for the cost it would have been better for me to have made 6 more toons than to have spent the time on the UW, especially since the only reason I did it was so I could try to stay on par with current content.

I guess just roll with the punches though. What happens, happens.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:14:01 pm by Orthanos »	Logged

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hateborne

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Don't nerf me bro!

Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #153 on: April 15, 2014, 08:16:54 pm »

Quote from: Orthanos on April 15, 2014, 08:12:20 pm

Quote

Proc damage is matching Ninjastrike damage * Weapon's Proc Mod = End Result.

So....the year+ that they've been scaled that way is wrong?

As I've stated before, can you suggest a better set of modifiers then?

-Hate


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Dimur

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #154 on: April 15, 2014, 08:29:45 pm »

What is the purpose of the modifiers exactly? I understand what they are now, but still am confused as to what their purpose is. If you could expand on the benefits of moving the current damage model to a base*dmg mod model, perhaps would could give better feedback.


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marxist

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Posts: 293

Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #155 on: April 15, 2014, 08:30:33 pm »

I spoke in more detail in game w/ you hate, but putting it out on here (hopefully with more clarity than before) just so others can see:

People were forced into farming UWs to move through t8+, with that going away, a lot of time that people had to spend farming this could have been better spent allocating resources to balancing a larger raid party with augs.

The primary allure of the UW is the white dmg and the way that works with warrior mechanics, changing to spell damage further removes value from the weapon.

I find it very difficult to input balancing ideas for the weapon without seeing the future augment ideas, what they do, what they cost, etc. Also unable to be seen are any other mechanics each type of weapon might have (rune proc, ae proc, etc) I would guess this might be something that is added on the augments, but do not know.

I would like to wait for changes on damage until we can see what the ideas for these augments are, and can see the full picture.


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Raygan

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #156 on: April 15, 2014, 09:22:27 pm »

Quote

So....the year+ that they've been scaled that way is wrong?

As I've stated before, can you suggest a better set of modifiers then?

What I was saying, as an example, is what I have been saying all along. The overall cost of the weapon should make it worth the essences. I am not putting numbers there because I think they are fine where they are at (for the white damage). It is robbing Peter to pay Paul kinda deal, because the hitpoints are where the issue really is.

In t8 running just 6 toons (normally War(UW), pally (8.0), clr (8.0), mnk (8.0), rog (8.0), brd (8.0)...it takes a normal amount of time to kill trash and a normal amount of time to kill named mobs. I don't want to have to run more toons (although I have another group and all my toons are maxxed strike aug'd to this point)

Why cut damage so drastically? it makes the weapon lackluster at best. I understand the hitpoint thing. I understand making it not game-breaking. What I don't understand is cutting the balls off the weapon (figuratively speaking).

And I am spit-balling here...but if the white damage is going to take a beating like that...can maybe put all 3 strike augs in the weapon? 1 NS/1IS/1FS plus the epic...and a UA (if that is ever implemented.) that way the dps is still decent?


« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 09:32:14 pm by Orthanos »	Logged

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Dimur

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #157 on: April 15, 2014, 10:17:11 pm »

I know it's gotta be frustrating as hell for you in trying to tune this Hate, but the only thing that people can agree on is that the HP on the UW required mobs to hit for an insane amount of damage to compensate. I think most people are okay with trading the hp loss on the weapon off for the decrease in the crazy high melee output from mobs. I also think that most people are okay with shedding some/most of the heroic resists on the item in exchange for more reasonable resist requirements from the mob(s) spell damage. But to be completely honest, it's hard for us to see the need for lowering the dps of the weapon. Mob hp can stay the same, regen can stay the same and it's a net zero change...stuff is still going to take a considerable amount of resources to efficiently plow through and UW dps isn't going to make or break your ability to do so.

I still don't see the point in making a whole new tiered system of UW augs, it seems like a time consuming endeavor and a balance nightmare...the UW is only an exceptional dps weapon on a warrior since they don't get dps strike augs, other toons mitigate a lot of the potential damage gain on doing a UW in the form of the strike augs they have access to. If someone wants to waste time making UW on their monk and sacrificing an NS aug weapon in doing so, more power to them but it's not a very good return on materials/time invested.

Please be more specific as to why you think the dps on the UW is hard to balance around when monks and rangers can crit NS for 8mil a pop, I don't think anyone is trying to call you out at all but we are having a hard time following your logic. If you can enlighten us a bit more on your thought process it might make the two way communication a bit less frustrating.


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Gannicus

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #158 on: April 15, 2014, 10:33:46 pm »

Mainly why I think you aren't going to see a better suggested stat multiplier here is because no one wants to see the white damage touched, there are 11 pages now, and at least once on every page there is the DO NOT TOUCH WHITE DAMAGE. Why? Because no one sees it reasonable for that to happen, we all agree on the game breaking factor of the UW, slash HP, slash resists, make changes to allow for the compensation to be there in game so that the hit on UW losing hp and resists balances out well and not game breaking. But touching the damage is in no way going to solve anything but make a bunch of people upset.

I first was upset when even the word nerf UW came into play, but I (like many others) actually followed the thread, made some arguments and conjured up some ideas that might be more "reasonable" of course not all will agree. But we all agree that the white damage needs to be left alone. I'm still waiting it out and seeing what happens to it instead of rage quitting at the first talk of nerfing UW but what it comes down to is what you do with the white damage (which should be left alone). Upping the strike damage on it isn't going to benefit considering X only procs X times per round of combat, where swings and in warriors case flurries hit multiple times in a round of combat + their normal combat swing diminishing still the damage return for such a huge hit for a slight increase in proc damage on the UW.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:38:56 pm by Quaglin45 »	Logged

hateborne

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #159 on: April 15, 2014, 10:47:37 pm »

My in-game conversation with Marxist, a few with Dimur (over the last week) & his posts today, and one with Blurring have made valid points. They brought legitimate arguments with a few metrics to back it up. Huge thanks to those three gents.

I've MASSIVELY increased the white damage modifiers to pretty much bring them to almost the exact same as they were before.

Please keep me posted with your feelings on these new values (procs and white damage).

-Hate


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Gannicus

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Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #160 on: April 15, 2014, 10:54:20 pm »

Now you good sir, are on to something!


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clbreastmilk

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Posts: 238

Re: Ultimate Weapon Discussion

« Reply #161 on: April 16, 2014, 05:28:31 am »

Thank you for listening to the community Hate. This thread has been strikingly civil compared to the last few UW threads over the years.

Once this gets finalized, shall we move onto what Mobs/Tiers/Zones will need mob Dmg adjustments? Tiers/ToFS etc.