DPS Comparisons and Parses

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[balidet]

you could UNfix (mostly) the pets so they do dps again...that would fix all but the wizzy dps... and then double the cost of the mana neck to bring it more in line with strike aug's

Give the wizzys an AE rain spell so they dont have to cast ever 4 seconds ...


casters fixed

[Adydar]

Before I start, yes, pareses are still sparse for casting classes, I'd wager the reasons are already listed, they aren't often played and DPS on a target that doesn't die won't accurate reflect the reason they aren't used (i.e. at most getting 1 cast off on a pull).

Some thoughts off the top of my head:

• Give DPS caster classes more AE spells (in some cases any AE spells).  They would need to be near instant cast to be of value
• Increase DPS caster spells by x%
• Make all DoTs AE, increase damage by y%
• Add DoT and DD damage increase to the mana neck to make scaling the damage appropriate for the tier, if needed, increase the cost per rank to be reflective of the increase
• Perhaps create spells only attainable by combines similar to defensive boon which would cost an essence plus something to create, they'd of course need to be significant damage to be worth spending an essence and plat or whatever on

The fact is, if you want to see caster classes played, their damage will need to exceed the equivalent melee class for the tier to reflect the fact that they require additional attention to play.  Unless they are more DPS, people will continue to play hit attack and forget it classes.

This would cause a problem as people wouldn't want to see a new DPS surge for cloth wearers because people don't want to regear new characters.

[Raygan]

Sorry going to call this as I see it.

For casters to be viable you need near instant spells and you don't need to have to micro manage them.  that is what makes strike aug classes awesome.  You would have a hard time convincing anyone that a caster should get anything that comes close to a strike aug class on dps w/o having to spend an equivalent amount of plat/esse/sls/etc on a spell that would come close to a strike aug.  Now if a spell were made that would cost 2ct,2dminor,2gminor,2gminor,2gmajor,2abyss,2anguish,2abyss,2lp,2tov,2oldcommons/22 sls/20 million plat on vendor ores...then by all means make some insta cast/proc caster spells with a very minor delay (to keep it equivalent to a melee proc).....also need to keep into account how twincast would affect this so that the dps would stay balanced between the two melee/caster

[hateborne]

Pages and pages and pages of suggestions, just an inkling of data. YES, I understand casters are undervalued and underplayed.


-Hate

[Expletus]

Practice Dummy on 11/24/2014 in 286sec

Total
 --- DMG: 255256311 (100%) @ 892505 dps (892505 sdps)

Baybe
 --- DMG: 255256311 (100%) @ 892505 dps (892505 sdps)

77 wiz. Chain casting Hate's gift 2. UC2 - epic 9.0 - Tsa staff- Tsa robe - CC 3

[Expletus]

Zerker - in T8 gear - epic 9.0 - Freeport slasher, 2 FSX augs, UC2, no buffs.

Practice Dummy on 11/24/2014 in 123sec

Total
 --- DMG: 250159669 (100%) @ 2033818 dps (2033818 sdps)
 --- DMG to PC: 72 @1dps

Berzmode
 --- DMG: 250159669 (100%) @ 2033818 dps (2033818 sdps)
 --- DMG to PC: 72 @1dps

[Expletus]

I would almost say that wizards need their cast time cut in half for hatebornes glacial gift line. Yama w/e is too mana intensive to use. The rain spell gets resisted way too much.

[balidet]

Resits can be adjusted....

Hate ...I will add some parse..

Casters do not need to be = to melee

Casters do not require Micro managing..i keep hearing this...

you can add /cast to your casters bccmd channel and attach it to the /attack hotkey you allready use..if its not on cooldown they will cast ...what  is to micromanage? you can even have /cast 1 /cast 2 then if (1) is on cooldown the (2) will cast.... its a no brainer people....and /stick can be modified so they keep a reasonable distance back..i chose 40.. seems to work..

Insta cast spells that do damage similar to melee dps is a horrible idea...to cheap.. wont work..you will have murder squads of wizards running around.

So enough of what is not going to work...

create caster augs.. leave everything else the same... just like melee augs but for ranged DPS.. they proc off whatever spell is being cast...obviously not as much damage as a ninja strike XI but something like icestrike...this would also let the hybrids and healers do something....

simple...fix... IMHO

I will follow up with full parse of all my caster toons when I get home...t9ish toons with UC2 mage/chanter/wizzy

[Expletus]

I agree that you don't need to have insta cast, casters. I do however think the casting time needs to be played with to see what a happy medium is. You don't have to micro manage casters at all. However if you don't have casters on par with melee toons, if they under their dps, no one will use them. You need to be comparable with them to make them viable.

[balidet]

I disagree... we have 1 class that is the best dps (call it whatever you want) and we don't see groups with only 5 (best dps) toons and a healer running around.

Most Casters have some other benefit other than dps....if you want address the other uses some classes have or don't have that's another thread.

if my mage can nuke/pet in the same ballpark as monk and COH AND throw out a nasty reactive proc...he will earn a spot.

[Premador]

My t8 wiz(cheesewhiz) epic 9.0, neck xi, uc2. Does around 1.2m dps. Using hatebornes glacial 3 chilled devil pet, and whizzy familiar. Can't get game parse to run, no instructions.

I like the dps aug idea somewhat, but the mana neck proc was kinda doing what balidet was suggesting allready. Not sure of mana necks cost but should be close to NS with similar dmg.  Bonus to squishies was always high utility or high damage. This isn't live but no reason wizzys shouldn't be similar to make them useful. I like my wiz and always keep him in my second group just because but would be nice if he could at least keep up with dmg. Especially when pulling a large amount of mobs where now he's lucky to even get on the scoreboard.

[Darpey]

Can't get game parse to run, no instructions.

ezserverwiki.com/Parse

^ I linked to this earlier in the thread - GamParse guide

[Kwai]

77 Wiz w/mananeck casting Yamakagi IV  - 2, 001,426

77 Nec twisting Insinuations III, Kiss of Corath III and Death III - 252,163

77 Mage twisting Malos II, Shylo II and Taelosian Victory  -  144,517
 (9.0 pet)  - 70,926

77 Enc twisting Blast, Insanity V, Breathless IV - 87,579
 (9.0 pet)  -  34,176

[balidet]

wizzy 9.0 Vamp Thunder/Pyromancy/KBI3.... Chain cast YFPI3   (ran OOM fast and was using harvest when it popped DPS: 134628

Mage 9.0 Vamp Thunder/KBI3/Mana Neck 8... Chain Cast SBoD3 (pet was full buffed with v2 swords and tess clicky) DPS: 369766

Enchanter 9.0 Vamp Thunder/ KBI3... Chain Cast WoT3/Breatheless4 (pet was full buffed with v2 swords and tess clicky.. this is what I cast with my enchanter deal with it) DPS: 67832

All UC2

[hateborne]

To answer the thread as whole:

BEFORE I START THIS RANT, KEEP IN MIND I BOXED SK, BRD, CLR, WIZ, WIZ, WIZ FOR YEARS! OLD FARTS TALKING TO ME LIKE I DON'T UNDERSTAND CASTERS IS...well it's hilarious.

As I've mentioned through the duration of the thread, almost everyone had opinions to throw out on "what the problem really is" or "here is the problem with casters". Almost none of those throwing out 'fixes' gave me data to play off of, so most of it is going to be disregarded.

As for casters and trash, I've been aware of this for a bit. To be fair, you're concerned that the casters get only a single spell off when you are instagibbing NPCs. That's pretty stupid. If you are to the point where you are instagibbing NPCs, giving all casters a 50mil (after scaling) nuke would still be useless at that rate. You are overpowering content with an army of Ninjastrike wielding goons to the point that even some of your NS users aren't getting real damage in because you're wrecking mobs in nearly one round.

As for micro managing toons, what is the difference between autoattack and a key that says "/bcc //keypress 1" (which is both pet attack and your primary nuke)? Yes, you have to press one key every 2 seconds but right now it's mostly attack, send army to auto attack, AFK.

For Mana Neck versus Ninjastrike math, yes I know. I've been fighting that for years and have always been mindful of making sure the time investments are similar. Calm your tits.

To answer Avadar's concern for making non-DPS classes DPS, no. The DPS classes like Wizard, Necro, and Mage are, apparently, under-performing. The hybrids or utility classes (shaman, druid, enchanter) may see slight bumps, but DPS (like all other roles) is a mixed one for them. Their DPS will always be lacking because of the numerous other things that can contribute to the fight.

With those parsing necromancer, magician, and enchanter...are pet values attached? This is a CRUCIAL bit of information as that *IS* part of their DPS.

On the UW "nerf" or (as Fugitive aptly put it¹) "alignment", let's not rehash that again. It's been almost 8 months. The UWs were broke all to hell and it made content dev impossible. At this point, you got stronger weapons for less god mode. They are still the ultimate weapons on the server, just not "lolgodmode" anymore.

Lemonpie, oh really? Neato, I need to experiment a bit heavier with bag but that's interesting to see. :-)


With all of that being said, I am locking this thread. I will do a few 10min parses on all casters, then I'll get fancy and doing some variant testing on my wiz (t9 max level with and without UW Staff, with and without Angryface, etc). 

After that, I'll post my results in addition to my thought process on the entire "state" of casters and any potential changes. Realistically, if there are a good many of them, it will end up as an "update" post.


-Hate

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