DPS Comparisons and Parses

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[hateborne]

DPS Comparisons and Parses

I've been seeing a bit of OOC about caster DPS being not equal, monk DPS being too high, etc etc etc. So....let's make it public and discuss what is truly weak and what is just hearsay.

Rules:

• Use GamParse to parse 10 minute fights. Anything less is subject to high or low randoms, anything more may be too big for GamParse to handle. (Link at bottom)
• ATTACH PARSE AS ZIPPED FILE.
• Post a basic oversight of the DPS (GamParse can do this automagically).
• Pet DPS can be visually separated from pet owners, but pet class DPS is the sum of the pet melee & procs + caster spells and procs.
• Post relevant gear/buff info (Ultimate Charm rank, special gear/items/halloween-pets, all equipped aug ranks, and all buffs going).

Once we have enough information, any glaring deficiencies or explosive gains will be addressed in a VERY open and VERY logical fashion. (No knee-jerk-nerfbats!)


-Hate


GamParse ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzdPtSifsCeQYkxOTWdjLTYwYnM/view?usp=sharing )

[aythena]

Once I re-install windows (MSE has failed me 4 viruses now) I will run game parse and compare ns10 uc2 mnk to my uc2 mage/enc, as well as compare my zerker to my uc2 necro all have mana neck 10's and ns or fs10's equal gear and give you a fair comparison.

[Ponzi]

lol jesus.. .yes, lets halt everything on the dev's plate and take a look at beastlords...

/wrists.

I just ran a parse on the amount of plat and resources it takes to make fire and ninja XIs... and my god.. it turns out they cost MORE than the mana necks. My jaw like, totally hit the floor.

[hateborne]

Nah, don't worry. This isn't halting anything. It comes down to me just wanting to get some feedback on the feel (and the metrics) for each class. If need be, I'll use mah mad hax and generate some characters to parse on if we cannot get the info.


-Hate

[Krinkle]

Id be very happy to help with this, ive got a t9 9.0 of every class, all at least UC1, but by there will be no knee jerk stuff you mean we can all discuss things normally kinda how we all do, and our opinions will matter? or we parse then oh well i wanna try this way so yeah youll all need to re make at least 6 new chars cause im destroying 3 key classes that all groups are based on. I dont mind getting rid of OP things, but really, whens the last time we got some good ass boosts? id like to see some good boosting instead of some good nerfing.

also, imo,  casters are not usefull because  when im clearing trash, i pull 10 mobs, i click assist, my melee assist me, then my wizard begins to cast a spell, that spell is done casting when i have about 5 mobs left to kill, (ie wizard spell never even landed)

even necro death 1, 2 , and 3, on a uc2 necro, using epidimic on a stupid big pull, not worth using, for a casters damage to matter it has to be upped to such a higher dmg that its gonna look scary. and you know what, if you try upping their dmg, and its SUPER overpowered, dang, a day of super high wizard dps. just revert the dmg if its taken to high, no big deal.

[Warbash]

I am parsing a Rog, Mnk, Rng, Bst, Brd all with uc1, t7 weapons and only 1 ninja IX in primary. Have chanter for additional buffs. I don't use casters they suck .

[Warbash]

Id be very happy to help with this, ive got a t9 9.0 of every class, all at least UC1, but by there will be no knee jerk stuff you mean we can all discuss things normally kinda how we all do, and our opinions will matter? or we parse then oh well i wanna try this way so yeah youll all need to re make at least 6 new chars cause im destroying 3 key classes that all groups are based on. I dont mind getting rid of OP things, but really, whens the last time we got some good ass boosts? id like to see some good boosting instead of some good nerfing.

Yeah kind of worried about this too

[Dimur]

Nobody is nerfing shit, all this thread exists for is a place for people who want to boost casters to give solid, realistic and concrete numbered feedback as to how this needs to happen.  People bitch all the time about casters not being worth using, this is an opportunity to clearly point out exactly why that is.  If you don't want to bother parsing and adding to the discussion, then keep your tinfoil hats on and go sit in the corner.  Perhaps I'm alone, but I would much rather see Hate use his limited time on EZ to address content issues rather than tying it up doing arbitrary parses that anyone who sees issues they want addressed could be performing themselves.  You don't need Admin status to run gamparse and show the disparity between equally tiered and geared classes of melee versus caster type characters and using those concrete numbers to extrapolate on what kind of adjustments need to be made to address any issues you might find.

[Warbash]

ok here is my 10 minute parse. FYI even at 10 minutes the numbers were changing a significant amount, not sure its long enough.
War T8 weapons with Anger 6 in both UC2
Rest are all t7 weapons, epic 6.0 UC1 with only 1 Ninja IX in primary, secondary has no augs (all I could afford)
Classes are;
Rog, Mnk, Ran, Bst, Brd
Ran was twisting epic and burning tender II and gale force II
Bst was casting viscious ice II
 
1st run self buffs only on ranger (secrests secret buff) and Crab Fu on mnk.
Scaled
Rog       474467
mnk      439146
rng        391314
bst        355943
bst pet   121188
Brd        348241

2nd run same buffs as above but added tempest blade III
Mnk     493258
rog       462553
ran       423129
bst       390545
pet       90161
brd       349737

3rd run same as above but added bard ancient call of power
rog       525699
mnk      518477
ran       426558
bst       385218
pet       89976
brd      373752

4th run same buffs as above added chanter Timeless hast and Vamp Thunder
Mnk    638347
rog     586669
ran     496476
brd       464821
bst      453211
pet      91528


So bst looks good as long as you include pet but they still die too fast, i never use pet. ranger looks a bit weak but I agree with Dimur it all looks good enough, no need to mess with it. fix the other stuff and work on content

[Krinkle]

Point i was making was, im not contributing time to help nerf classes i use. I would enjoy contributing my time to buffing classes that arent used. im not tin foil hat paranoia when you see nerfs, never buffs. thats not a bash at hate, thats just the way it has happened in the past.

not gonna try to make it sound all sweet, smart, or cherry coated, but thats how i feel and i mean no offense to anyone.

and the problem with caster vs melee isnt them not being equal dps, its that casters have to be insane dmg to even (in real clear scenario not practice dummy) be close to melee dps.

But ill get on parsing some casters, thought im not sure if u want me to cast their top tier spells to test dps or what i think is the most dps i can possibly get in 10 min?
(cast yamas inferno 4 a few times, regen, repeat, or just twist hates glacial gift 2 for 10 mins straight?)

[aythena]

Computer back up with fresh install getting everything functioning, then finishing uc2 on mage so I can a fair comparision of mana neck +nukes vs monk with uc2 and strike augs, including rogue as well , will be parsing zerker vs necro, mage vs mnk, can also parse shaman vs druid (Yes the whole point of this wasn't saying that mnks or rogues are too op the point was saying that nukes do not scale to tier far as base damage, that includes all casters and hybrids.) Lots of anguish farm tommorrow before I test in tier 8 (or can test on dummy whatever everyone suggest.) And to dimuwar, fyi casters really have had any changes or real improvement for years and people have been complaining about the lack of scaling to tier, so asking hate to look into something that been in issue for years versus new content, sorry but some of us would like to see old problems addressed before new headaches come .

[Ponzi]

Since this is about being fair, it really should take 3 mana VIII necks to make a single mana IX neck.

Cost in Plat to make a pair of Ninja XIs -- 44 million raw plat.

Lets assign essence costs as such: (Qvic 200 / CT 250 / Dminor 300 / Dmajor 250 / Gminor 350 / Gmajor 600 / Abyss 500 / Anguish 200 / LP 750 / ToV 1.5m / OC 2.5m)

Cost in Ess to make a pair of Ninja XIs - 29.6 million raw plat

Assign SLS current market value of 400k (/giggle, but its true)

48 SLS @ 400k = 19.2 million raw plat.

COST OF TWO NS XI total = 92.8 million plat.

Same values for Mana Neck :

Cost in raw plat for a Mana Neck XI - 9.5 million raw plat.

Cost in Ess for a Mana Neck XI - 31.6 million raw plat

Cost in SLS for a Mana Neck XI - 8.8 million raw plat (22 sls's)

COST OF A MANA NECK XI total = 49.9 million plat.

Thanks to Darpey's wiki for saving me a ton of time doing redundant math.

[Digz]

Caster dps is troubling because of the nature of the caster in everquest, theyre just too slow and too needy as far as attention goes which is usually the game breaking decision compared to fire and forget dps like monk/rog. like krinkle said, their numbers aren't whats wrong and frankly to be honest...i have no idea what you could do to make me say "im gunna bench my monk/rog for a wizard!. when im boxing 12 toons the last thing i have time to do is actively micro manage 1 dps box. With that said i do have a fully geared wiz with 7.0 and uc, just haven't grouped him up once yet..hes more of a barbie doll that i like to gear out for GIGGLES at this point. there's nothing wrong with that right?

since this is KINDA on the same topic i was thinking about this yesterday and don't really want to make a new thread. What do you guys think would be the best fit for a second UW after tank? im thinking rogue would poop all over everyone with an equal uw to compare with? also lack of melee proc  (not click) augments on hive queen for melee UWs makes me sad

[Adydar]

also, imo,  casters are not usefull because  when im clearing trash, i pull 10 mobs, i click assist, my melee assist me, then my wizard begins to cast a spell, that spell is done casting when i have about 5 mobs left to kill, (ie wizard spell never even landed)

Here lies one significant problem, most times a caster is lucky to land 1 spell per mob, let alone 2, and once the rest of the pack has been ae'd down a bit already, they may not land another spell on anything until the next pull.  The exception is bosses, even then though, their DPS feel very lacking.

My group runs a mage in it, really only because I played a mage on live, otherwise, we'd have another monk or zerk or something in it's place.  My play times suck with a 3yr old so I don't know I'll get much of a chance to parse it out, but will certainly try.

I also agree with the lets not nerf characters, yes a mana neck may be cheaper then an equal strike aug, however, the return is not the same.  Maybe the neck should have a percentage spell boost scaling up similar to the dps boost gained by strike augs, then if so inclined, you can raise the price to be equivalent.

[Rent Due]

Caster dps is troubling because of the nature of the caster in everquest, theyre just too slow and too needy as far as attention goes which is usually the game breaking decision compared to fire and forget dps like monk/rog. like krinkle said, their numbers aren't whats wrong and frankly to be honest...i have no idea what you could do to make me say "im gunna bench my monk/rog for a wizard!. when im boxing 12 toons the last thing i have time to do is actively micro manage 1 dps box. With that said i do have a fully geared wiz with 7.0 and uc, just haven't grouped him up once yet..hes more of a barbie doll that i like to gear out for GIGGLES at this point. there's nothing wrong with that right?

nail, head, etc.

I do actually have a wizard, he is T9, I have a mage and ench, both T9 as well. They are all 3 benched. I wont be using them. I have the ench for buffs, the mage for single coth in T7 and the wizard because I always thought it would be cool to have a wizard.

heres the problem with casters, beyond the 1 spell per mob (if youre lucky). I do not want to manage different toons on different screens. I do not want to switch from my tank to my wizard to cast spells. If we could have macro's to auto cast spells that would solve a little of that problem, but that's another story.

I have the mage to single coth, but at least her pet gives off some DPS. Now the problem with the mana neck, I think hers is X, maybe XI, is that she has to cast spells in order for the buff to be cast on the pet, again, manage one toon to get a buff on the pet so that the pet does the extra dps, no thanks. If the mana neck had a 1 time buff that lasted 100 hours then yeah she would be more viable as a constant dps machine.

strikes vs neck.
the strike augs, imo, are what separates the "do you want to be end game" from "I just want to have fun" here, kinda like T5 lol. No hate towards either crowd, but strike augs cost a LOT of time and effort to make. Mana neck, not so much. Therefore, the rewards of the strike aug should be 2x or 3x what the neck is.

for my game play, melee, ie monks, zerkers, rogues is the way to go. I just don't feel like switching screens to cast spells, I just don't. I like to point and shoot and stay on my main screen to chat, bs, and manage my pulls.

frankly this entire thing, born in ooc is a little on the tard side to me. casters are fine, melee is fine. we do not need Hate wasting his time further balancing classes, which WILL butthurt far more players than it will make happy in the end.

What we need is Hate focused on game creation. Not things like this. Nothing is broken here.

If you want to play casters, trust me, the numbers are going to show that they are balanced. have fun with the screen changing, spell casting, whatever. If you want your casters to put out more DPS then invest the time needed into those toons to make them do so, ie UC's, rings, etc. Everyone has their own way to play, style, what they want to do on a pull, etc. I think a lot of people choose to go sword and board vs spell slinging, but I may be wrong.

again, my opinion, but I think this is a time drain on our development time and completely not needed.

Rent is out $$ lol

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